ata? Good, bad newbie needs help

[just2kicku]

Okay, maybe my comment was a little harsh, but it's so frustrating seeing these belt factories that teach "martial arts". You go in there and 10 yr olds are teaching the class and the adult instructors are trying to sell packages for an ungodly amount of money.
The thing about these types of schools is that they're more interested in making money than passing on knowledge. Hey, if it works for him then good luck,. I would rather know that when our kids walk out of our dojo they can actually defend themselves.

 

[Sylo]

Okay, maybe my comment was a little harsh, but it's so frustrating seeing these belt factories that teach "martial arts". You go in there and 10 yr olds are teaching the class and the adult instructors are trying to sell packages for an ungodly amount of money.
The thing about these types of schools is that they're more interested in making money than passing on knowledge. Hey, if it works for him then good luck,. I would rather know that when our kids walk out of our dojo they can actually defend themselves.

what do you mean? They will be able to, as long as they are armed with a light up pair of num chucks.

 

[astrobiologist]

I've never been to an ATA school, but, like almost everyone else I know, I've heard mostly the worst. A few students from a nearby ATA school have come to ours, and it takes a lot of work to fix what the ATA taught them about SD. The ATA seem to be the spearhead for american franchised kick-punch gymnastics.

However, that said, if this guy has found something that makes him happy and is giving him a chance to learn something new with his son, then so be it. I'm glad ATAFamily has chosen to come to Martial Talk and share this with us. The fact that he did some research and seems to be taking his approach to his new school with an open mind is a good thing. At his age, the gymnastics workout will be great for him. I hope he understands that he will be getting a sub-par self defense education, but street defense isn't what everyone wants. The ATA have something for the people who want the gymnastics, the point-sparring, and the flashy stuff. They have the multi-colored and camo belts and flashy uniforms and plastic weapons with lights and there are some people who want that. Those of us who prefer the martial side of "martial arts" really aren't being hurt by the ATA, we just need people to understand what it is they're learning there.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I can say with all honestly in a 30 minute class its easy to see who takes time to actually practice this at home.

Class is only 30 mins long?

 

[Sylo]

Class is only 30 mins long?

this puzzled me as well..

15 minutes of my class is spent stretching..

not sure how you'd get anything accomplished in just 30 minutes.. unless they are not warming up properly.

 

[astrobiologist]

ya, a 30 minute class would be pretty weird. I don't think I could get much accomplished if I only had a half hour to teach. It could be done, but an hour to two hours is much better for a general class length.

 

[HM2PAC]

In ATA, the beginner classes for the small children are 30 minutes in length in most places.

Our adult and intermediate classes are all at least an hour. Most evenings my family spends at least 2 hours there.

I've trained in other forms of MA in the past. Presently I am very happy with the SD that is being taught.

That all being said, there is disparity btwn various ATA schools. There are numerous sharks in the pool looking to take your money, there are also schools with dedicated instructors/owners.

On a different topic, I find the insulting rhetoric regarding the ATA found on this website to be offensive. I have always treated people with respect and dignity, as humans that share the earth with me. However, many people here spout off half-truths and left-handed comments with usurped authority about an organization they are not involved with. Some of these people are BB's. Some of them are instructors.

One thing I can assure you about the ATA, I have never heard my instructors bad mouth any of your disciplines. They respectfully crosstrain with some of your styles though.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

One thing I can assure you about the ATA, I have never heard my instructors bad mouth any of your disciplines. They respectfully crosstrain with some of your styles though.

Let me assure you that your ATA school is unique in crosstraining and not trash talking then. The ATA schools around here do not get involved in open tournaments or mix in with other groups. One I believe has a Krav Maga program but again thats rare. Just recently there was a local ATA instructor arrested for child molestation which i have heard of happening within the ATA organization more than once. Sad but ATA does not have a good reputation as a whole. You will quickly find out that the martial arts is a small world and these things get around to good schools and instructors who in turn frown on it.

 

[Cirdan]

On a different topic, I find the insulting rhetoric regarding the ATA found on this website to be offensive. I have always treated people with respect and dignity, as humans that share the earth with me. However, many people here spout off half-truths and left-handed comments with usurped authority about an organization they are not involved with.

Sorry you feel that way but ATA`s reputation is very well earned.

Some of these people are BB's. Some of them are instructors.

Some of those BB`s are five years old. A lot of those instructors are doing more harm than good.

 

[HM2PAC]

Cirdan wrote:

Some of those BB`s are five years old. A lot of those instructors are doing more harm than good.

Cirdan, you have not caught the meaning of what I am writing. I am making the statement that the insults and the name calling that is going on here is being done by BlackBelts, instructors, and owners on this site. These are all groups of people whom I would expect more out of on a personal level. I have never in all of my life been taught by any instructor, teacher, or coach, that people who did things differently were as a rule as bad as the ATA is, per some peoples opinions.

Brandon Fisher wrote:

Just recently there was a local ATA instructor arrested for child molestation which i have heard of happening within the ATA organization more than once.

That in itself is sad and despicable, but are you willing to say that it applies to the organization as a whole? What about soccer coaches, priests, gym teachers, ...... the lists go on and on. No large organization is ever free from evil men and women.


Don't get me wrong I know the ATA has some seriously lax standards when compared to other more traditional schools. However, there are some good people out there and some good schools out there that are being included in disparaging blanket statements.

BB's are way to easy to come by in my opinion, (in the ATA), but I've never seen a 5 year old BB, that is for sure. I'm sure they exist, but I wouldn't say that every school has them. A few times a week I am surrounded by children with BB's, most of them are about 10. Again, I agree it's way too young. But I'm not able to say that because of that, an entire organization is bad.

 

[Sylo]

Cirdan wrote:


Cirdan, you have not caught the meaning of what I am writing. I am making the statement that the insults and the name calling that is going on here is being done by BlackBelts, instructors, and owners on this site. These are all groups of people whom I would expect more out of on a personal level. I have never in all of my life been taught by any instructor, teacher, or coach, that people who did things differently were as a rule as bad as the ATA is, per some peoples opinions.

Brandon Fisher wrote:


That in itself is sad and despicable, but are you willing to say that it applies to the organization as a whole? What about soccer coaches, priests, gym teachers, ...... the lists go on and on. No large organization is ever free from evil men and women.


Don't get me wrong I know the ATA has some seriously lax standards when compared to other more traditional schools. However, there are some good people out there and some good schools out there that are being included in disparaging blanket statements.

BB's are way to easy to come by in my opinion, (in the ATA), but I've never seen a 5 year old BB, that is for sure. I'm sure they exist, but I wouldn't say that every school has them. A few times a week I am surrounded by children with BB's, most of them are about 10. Again, I agree it's way too young. But I'm not able to say that because of that, an entire organization is bad.

It would be different if we were slandering the ATA with falsities. Everything that has been mentioned has happened in multiple ATA schools. I do not know of 1 ATA school in my area alone, that is legitimate. I've even checked some of them out, because I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. But like has already been stated. The reputation they have, is well deserved. Noone is saying that you can't get good instruction at an ATA school, or that all ATA schools are bad. But, there definitely is a noticeable majority of them that are.

Like has already been said. You go where you can get what you want out of it. Many, many people enjoy the flash and casual training methods of the ATA over the more strict/strenuous nature of the more traditional schools. Nothing wrong with that. I don't particular agree with it, but thats my opinion and I am entitled to it. If I were to attend an ATA school, I'd stick out like a sore thumb.. as I can't follow most of what they do. Song Ahm Tae Kwon Do is no better or worse than ITF or WTF... or whatever. Its all the "commercialism" they've added that makes it less desirable to traditional martial artists. Its more of a "club" or a "program" rather than a martial arts school.

I know several "former" ATA students.. who went on to open their own non ATA schools. They will tell you that while they learned alot about TKD in ATA. They also learned what "not" to do, and was rather put off by all the mainstreaming of it. But, you have to remember.. ATA is basically the XMA poster boy so its expected.

Bottom Line is..

If you want to learn basic TKD with flash and a "entertainment value" tossed in.. go with ATA

If you want to learn basic TKD and don't care about the other stuff, find a more traditional school.

You can learn from both, and you can apply yourself (only you can do that, noone can make you) in both. It just doesn't help that the ATA instructors really won't push you to do so, so you'll have to do it on your own.

If someone can note ATA schools that do not follow the basic mcdojo formula it might be helpful to know what they are as to seperate the good from the bad.

 

[terryl965]

ATA is what it is, if people enjoy and respect that the training they are recieving will really work on the streets so be it. I know for a fact that the ATA schools around me SD is basic at best tought by people that have no clue what will and what will not work. Like I have said before if you are happy than that is all that matters. Enjoy your training but always be aware of sheep in wolf clothing.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

It's kind of funny to read a thread started by someone asking for opinions and then watch people including the original poster get insulted when people give their actual opinions.

In response to the one gentleman in the ATA who said they've never met a 5 year old BB. I haven't either but I have had the pleasure of trying to explain to 7 yr old students of my own why it's gonna take them at least 6 months to get a yellow belt from me and probably close to 10 for a jrBB even though they have a friend their age who got a BB in less than 2.

However, I have had the pleasure of meeting a 17 yr old 4th degree BB.

_Don Flatt

 

[Sylo]

It's kind of funny to read a thread started by someone asking for opinions and then watch people including the original poster get insulted when people give their actual opinions.

In response to the one gentleman in the ATA who said they've never met a 5 year old BB. I haven't either but I have had the pleasure of trying to explain to 7 yr old students of my own why it's gonna take them at least 6 months to get a yellow belt from me and probably close to 10 for a jrBB even though they have a friend their age who got a BB in less than 2.

However, I have had the pleasure of meeting a 17 yr old 4th degree BB.

_Don Flatt

Opinions and Insults are often confused with each other. Because, alot of the time.. when someone's "opinion" is not the same as another persons, its often then thought of as an insult.

I haven't seen anything insulting about what was said.

Everything that has been said is valid. The OP wanted opinions on what the general concensus of ATA schools was with various martial artists that post here. Thats exactly what he got. You can't sugar coat everything as to not offend. Sometimes the blunt truth is the best way to go.

There are some positives to ATA if that will help matters..

1. engineered specifically for kids
2. gives kids motivation to keep progressing
3. great exercise if you put the effort into it
4. Lots of tournaments to compete in
5. Lots of people to potentially meet and become friends with

 

[astrobiologist]

Agreed... I don't think any of us responded with the point of slandering the ATA. We were asked for our opinions and gave them.

If someone wants to know about a restaurant in my town, I'll tell them what I think; it may be good or it may be bad, depending on the restaurant.

 

[Sylo]

Agreed... I don't think any of us responded with the point of slandering the ATA. We were asked for our opinions and gave them.

If someone wants to know about a restaurant in my town, I'll tell them what I think; it may be good or it may be bad, depending on the restaurant.

For example. If you asked me about Mcdonalds.. my review wouldn't be a positive one. Doesn't mean I am slandering them. Means they need to work harder to please "me" as the consumer if they want my business.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm on this one late and the OP seems to have received his sought after advice and made his decision. In the event that he is still following this thread or that other ATA inquirers are reading it, I will say this.

The ATA offers pricey family oriented schools. It is not geared towards the "hard core" trainier, though one can certainly train that way on their own. Some schools are better than others. Some are more focused on MA and SD than others.

I understand that their sparring style is light contact with full hogu and that their tournaments are closed to ATA members. This is neither good nor bad. Want full contact with gear? Go find a school that teaches WTF sparring and be done with it. Want full contact with less gear? Go find a kyokushin school and be done with it. To those who don't like ATA sparring? Be happy with what you're doing and be done with it.

Like any other martial art or martial arts organization, the individual instructor and school is of far greater importance than the generalities of the art or the organizations particulars.

I operate on the presupposition that 80% of everything is of poor quality. Thus, 80% of all martial arts schools, regardless of org are of poor quality. And by extension, in theory, 80% of all KKW, ITF, ATA, ITA, other org and independent schools would be of poor quality by that rule.

I judge each school individually and not by its parent org.

Honestly,the only thing that I have to say about the ATA in the negative is that they are expensive and have too many costs factored in on top of their monthlies. That is not in any way, shape or form unique to the ATA, though due to the way that their organization is structure, you'd be hard pressed to find an ATA school that isn't this way, while other orgs tend to be more varried.
One of the early posts said that the ATA views all students as quitting and emphasizes getting as much cash as possible from them. Well, guess what? The ATA and other schools that do this (many outside of the ATA have this view) are the symptom, not the problem.

Part of the problem is the first few old school masters who sold out, for whatever reason, and shifted focus from teaching students to running a big business. Once the public figured out that they could have blackbelts for their twelve year olds, they demanded it. We, the martial arts instructors and school owners gave it to them like fools. Now we're stuck with our own curse and use the ATA and other profit minded schools as our scapegoat.

Shame on us.

Daniel

 

[astrobiologist]

I can agree that I don't know about all ATA schools, all I know is about the ATA school that was near me, the students that came to me from that school, and what I've heard from others' experiences with ATA schools. There may be some with instructors/operators who are focused more on the martial art than the money or the flash. I really hope there are. Like I said before though, if someone is looking for the flashy stuff or the gymnastics, than that is their choice, too.

The ATA school that was in my area is now gone. Overnight cheaters. One day a bunch of parents showed up with their children in their uniforms and such, but the doors were locked, the building was empty, and there was no sign of the instructors. That's pathetic.

Like I said, the students who have come to me from that school have required a lot of fixing when it comes to their self-defense knowledge, most of which was rudimentry at best. Their cardio was also pretty weak. One guy, who was a 2nd dan through ATA, came in for one class and was more winded after my warm-up than my beginners. He gave it his best though, which is awesome and I have respect for that. I'm not saying ATA students are bad students or bad people. I'm just saying the ones who attended the ATA school that was near me did not seem to get a strong martial arts education from that school.

I would love to hear some good stories about an ATA school. Something to inspire me that the problem is on an individual school basis and not in the overall curriculum of the ATA.

 

[HM2PAC]

I will say that the vast majority of what I have seen in the ATA and about the ATA on the error-net is entertaining in a horrible way.

Over-all I am beginning to see it for what it is, and as there is no other viable alternative in my area, I go with it.

That being said I am fortunate that my ATA school is not like many others. I have never heard my instructors cut down any of the other style schools in our region of Maine. However they are very harsh and straight-forward when rebuking other ATA schools in the area. They have been known to honestly and openly criticize 2 other ATA schools in our area. Those 2 schools are what all of you are talking about. Slop, slop, and more slop.

ATA physical conditioning is starting to come around. There are many obese and de-conditioned BB's and instructors than you can imagine. The ATA has recognized this as an organization wide problem and are going to be implementing fit testing similar to military standards. If you can't pass, you do not progress in rank. (This I really like). I may be new to TKD, but I've been a lifetime fitness nut.

I like the responses I have been given by all of you who have been frank. Thank you for your candor. The ATA has a multitude of problems, but they also do a lot of really good things for their students and their communities.

HM2PAC

 

[Sylo]

I will say that the vast majority of what I have seen in the ATA and about the ATA on the error-net is entertaining in a horrible way.

Over-all I am beginning to see it for what it is, and as there is no other viable alternative in my area, I go with it.

That being said I am fortunate that my ATA school is not like many others. I have never heard my instructors cut down any of the other style schools in our region of Maine. However they are very harsh and straight-forward when rebuking other ATA schools in the area. They have been known to honestly and openly criticize 2 other ATA schools in our area. Those 2 schools are what all of you are talking about. Slop, slop, and more slop.

ATA physical conditioning is starting to come around. There are many obese and de-conditioned BB's and instructors than you can imagine. The ATA has recognized this as an organization wide problem and are going to be implementing fit testing similar to military standards. If you can't pass, you do not progress in rank. (This I really like). I may be new to TKD, but I've been a lifetime fitness nut.

I like the responses I have been given by all of you who have been frank. Thank you for your candor. The ATA has a multitude of problems, but they also do a lot of really good things for their students and their communities.

HM2PAC

Exactly, there are bad seeds everywhere. ATA just seems to have more of those than others, so they stick out more. Doesn't mean they are not everywhere. One thing ATA could do to improve its reputation, is split its adults and kids efforts into 2 different things. Watching people in their 30s and 40s twirling a plastic bo staff just seems silly to me. I mean, if you want to be a baton twirler in your spare time its a good way to learn.. but I just feel like that sort of stuff should be only open to the younger set or at least give the adults the option to opt out of it. I don't think any of the "flash" should be required, but there as an option if you want to participate. Somewhat like demo teams are handled in traditional schools (our school is too old school for demo teams, but I actually like the idea of demo teams.. as it draws attention to what we do in a positive way that the public can relate to. I guess you could say that the ATA is a BIG demo team. In a way)