At what point do I become the aggressor????

[Jenna]

Can I paint a situation please.. imagine you are walking.. you have some one you are with (a minor 14yr) her 'father' has come for her (ok she is a handful and wayward) anyway.. he has stated as clear as there is no mistake that he intends to smash her.. beat her flat is his words..

Is there any thing at all to be done that I am NOT the aggressor?? she is many colours of the rainbow from his hand already.. I am sick to my stomach of this it is like I let her down every time this happens..

I am caught between doing zero or doing some thing that will serve no good purpose.. there is no answer to this??? I have spoken to him when he is off the barbs and but that is rare and all I want is STOP him from doing this to her.. I am not her family.. I am here in no capacity except I found her in a place she should not be.. I am always put where I am..

I could give background - it is never B&W issue there are so many problems and but I think I am probably just venting.. what would you do in this situation? Surely any thing at all will transmute your good intention into you as aggressor? what do you do.. say to your self this is just what the whole world is like and leave it at that??

He is a drinker along with the barb and ok there are too too many family difficultes and but understand that here (Paris) it is like family 'ties' are sacrosanct and unassailable and understand that social services have an horrible disinterest and moreover it is a minority community and very insular and untrusting and unliked moreover.. Granted it is not his fault he is how he is and but it is LESS her fault and she is not to blame for his problems with himself.. I took her to police my self and they made social services involved and but that was 7/8mth ago and still it is no change for her.. The police are not friends with this community they do not much come here except if there is a raid for substances. This itself is understandable I am not against the police it is hard enough for them because they see this place it self-policing.. which it is.. gangs within they try to take the young girls fight among their selves extort for rents it is like a hopeless slum.. I am not here to save every body.. impossible.. it is not like TV.. it does not ever work out that way.. I only want to help one person who means more than a lot to me and I am bereft.. I could do this and that with him it would achieve no good thing so I am to do no thing at all??? Does it matter that I become the aggressor? I do not know legally or even right now morally..

It is like a pattern that I only come here when I am needy of advice.. so what.. that does not mean any thing.. I post this a lot of other places too for help.. if you have a any idea I am grateful.. you have a prayer I am grateful I think I am venting.. probably this is not a question for this forum.. forgive me only some times there is insight I am incapable of.. you know more than I know or have been where I have not been.. Thank you kiss Jxxx

 

[K-man]

Wow! Jenna you are between a rock and a hard place. From your description I am thinking this might be a Muslim community. Is that the case?

 

[Transk53]

Not a lot can be done. It takes a beaten child to take a stand. This I know! Not much help probably, but I sincerely hope you find an answer

 

[Tez3]

Phone the NSPCC on 0808 800 5000, it's a 24 hr helpline. Tell them everything you have told us. Do it now. they will know who to contact and who to see regardless of where you are.

 

[tshadowchaser]

not sure what the laws are where you are at the moment but usually here in the states one can protect someone who is danger of life and limb.
having said that I like Tez's answer

 

[jezr74]

Phone the NSPCC on 0808 800 5000, it's a 24 hr helpline. Tell them everything you have told us. Do it now. they will know who to contact and who to see regardless of where you are.

100% this

 

[Jenna]

Wow! Jenna you are between a rock and a hard place. From your description I am thinking this might be a Muslim community. Is that the case?

My friend this is the Roma community some people call us gypsies that is ok you know what I mean? theTziganes they say here when they are being polite.. Government operate a rejective policy here and locally in this departement they seek to herd these people out of the town and further out of their country.. anyway that is too big a problem for me to do any thing about.. I have a smaller concern to top this from happening to her i just do not know what is left.. I tried what i could think still the situation continues.. and but even thank you for your thought my friend Jx

 

[Jenna]

Phone the NSPCC on 0808 800 5000, it's a 24 hr helpline. Tell them everything you have told us. Do it now. they will know who to contact and who to see regardless of where you are.

Ah lovely Tez thank you for this you are kind to reply and but I am not in London no more it is all different where I am yes I had called the 119 number here and I have spoken to what is the NSPCC equivalent of france like you suggest and then I had petitioned to the police and I had even during Christmas gone to the maire office direct the girl is been assigned a key person and but she came to the camp only once.. it is a slum you know like a bad bad caravan park.. like a tip and a dump none of the official departments want anything to do with these people it is bad publicity for them with how right wing and anti-everybody a lot of french are here now.. this is not my problem though I only need to try to get this man to stop what he is doing.. I just do not know how.. he is not so tough still it takes every thing in me not to do to him even some of what he does to her and but then I am no better! he is not a bad person he had just no control of him self.. I have even taken her to stay with me and but that makes him angrier because then there is nobody to look after him either.. is no state of things.. I am so sorry.. I do not like to be down on it.. sorry Tez kiss xox

 

[stonewall1350]

Can I paint a situation please.. imagine you are walking.. you have some one you are with (a minor 14yr) her 'father' has come for her (ok she is a handful and wayward) anyway.. he has stated as clear as there is no mistake that he intends to smash her.. beat her flat is his words..

Is there any thing at all to be done that I am NOT the aggressor?? she is many colours of the rainbow from his hand already.. I am sick to my stomach of this it is like I let her down every time this happens..

I am caught between doing zero or doing some thing that will serve no good purpose.. there is no answer to this??? I have spoken to him when he is off the barbs and but that is rare and all I want is STOP him from doing this to her.. I am not her family.. I am here in no capacity except I found her in a place she should not be.. I am always put where I am..

I could give background - it is never B&W issue there are so many problems and but I think I am probably just venting.. what would you do in this situation? Surely any thing at all will transmute your good intention into you as aggressor? what do you do.. say to your self this is just what the whole world is like and leave it at that??

He is a drinker along with the barb and ok there are too too many family difficultes and but understand that here (Paris) it is like family 'ties' are sacrosanct and unassailable and understand that social services have an horrible disinterest and moreover it is a minority community and very insular and untrusting and unliked moreover.. Granted it is not his fault he is how he is and but it is LESS her fault and she is not to blame for his problems with himself.. I took her to police my self and they made social services involved and but that was 7/8mth ago and still it is no change for her.. The police are not friends with this community they do not much come here except if there is a raid for substances. This itself is understandable I am not against the police it is hard enough for them because they see this place it self-policing.. which it is.. gangs within they try to take the young girls fight among their selves extort for rents it is like a hopeless slum.. I am not here to save every body.. impossible.. it is not like TV.. it does not ever work out that way.. I only want to help one person who means more than a lot to me and I am bereft.. I could do this and that with him it would achieve no good thing so I am to do no thing at all??? Does it matter that I become the aggressor? I do not know legally or even right now morally..

It is like a pattern that I only come here when I am needy of advice.. so what.. that does not mean any thing.. I post this a lot of other places too for help.. if you have a any idea I am grateful.. you have a prayer I am grateful I think I am venting.. probably this is not a question for this forum.. forgive me only some times there is insight I am incapable of.. you know more than I know or have been where I have not been.. Thank you kiss Jxxx

DOCUMENT! Picture and video! Call the law!

And if the threat is IMMEDIATE AND he states his intentions and he can carry it out...you have reason to defend. Additionally...he cannot touch you. He would then be the aggressor. But document. Video and pictures. He can't fight that in court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[K-man]

Jenna I have no knowledge of Roma communities but I thought I read somewhere that there was a community council that even had the power to expel members. Is that the case?

 

[jks9199]

Jenna I have no knowledge of Roma communities but I thought I read somewhere that there was a community council that even had the power to expel members. Is that the case?

I agree. What I know of the Romani tells me that their internal social pressures can be very powerful and effective, if you can reach them. Though it's certainly possible that they would view the behavior as being within his rights as the father...

There may also be some outreach or victim's support groups that target that community. They may be able to help you.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I feel for your position Jenna and hope and pray that there is a group, council, legal system that can allow you to report this and hopefully get the situation under control. I am not familiar enough with your area to give you good advice but will ask around with a few friends.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna I have no knowledge of Roma communities but I thought I read somewhere that there was a community council that even had the power to expel members. Is that the case?

I agree. What I know of the Romani tells me that their internal social pressures can be very powerful and effective, if you can reach them. Though it's certainly possible that they would view the behavior as being within his rights as the father...

There may also be some outreach or victim's support groups that target that community. They may be able to help you.

yes how do you know of this? You all know lots of things even outside of your own country your knowledge is a blessing and I welcome your advice and insights it is why I am asking here.. people know things.. and yes this is exactly right what you said and but you know these things some times they have like trials only these only apply outside of a family.. it is HIS family and he is in charge of what happens and that is that.. there is no question here.. his wife her mother even takes his side (she is afraid for her self also) and because the girl she does not want to be put into a marriage like they say she must and goes into the town it self by her self and well I am not going to criticise what she goes up to she is a teenager like any.. because of this it is HER that is at risk of being put out! it is HER who is called as unclean and a disrespect..

I do not wish to be in all of that circumstance and because it seems they are backward and outside of normality and I cannot argue against that.. it is like arguing against my self.. I ONLY want to stop him from hurting her.. I have asked him and but even I am the foreigner or outside person the gagica to him so it is me who is disrespectful and then I had tried to TELL him to stop .. what can you do to me he says what can you do.. this is why I am asking because I cannot admit he is right and it has me sick of the world that it is like this you do not see her face or the terror when he claims her off me.. anyway thank you my friends.. I am sorry to vent I think maybe that is all I need to do.. maybe it is a problem with just no good answer.. I will back off and back out for worry that I caused an offence to anyones sensibilities and but I promise I am eternally grateful for your compassion to think of replying really I am thank you so much hug Jx

 

[jks9199]

The Romani exist around the world, and unfortunately cause problems around the world. I was fortunate to have a professor along the way who had been involved in extensive investigations involving them, so got to learn a fair bit about their culture.

You're in a terrible situation. Your hands are tied without official support; all you can really do is be supportive for the young lady. I would not encourage you to physically intervene; all I know about French law is that it is VERY different from laws that derive from English Common Law. Protect yourself, and try to find some sort of assistance agency that will do something. Good luck.

 

[Tez3]

These may be able to help you deal with it, they may be able to help the girl too. Domestic violence

I have the details of a women's refuge in Nice, it's too far from you of course but they may have details of 'sister' refuges if that would help.

 

[Jenna]

These may be able to help you deal with it, they may be able to help the girl too. Domestic violence

I have the details of a women's refuge in Nice, it's too far from you of course but they may have details of 'sister' refuges if that would help.

Thank you dear Tez.. I had not thought of trying this avenue.. I can easily check today what is nearer here.. it is very kind of you to suggest this.. wishes to you and have a lovely day hug xox

 

[Tez3]

Thank you dear Tez.. I had not thought of trying this avenue.. I can easily check today what is nearer here.. it is very kind of you to suggest this.. wishes to you and have a lovely day hug xox

No problem, hopefully you will find someone/something that will allow some sort of solution for both of you. xx

 

[Instructor]

As other's have said I would try the authorities first. Try very hard to do things the right way. Pursuing "natural justice" on your own probably won't help the person and will likely have negative consequences for you.

 

[Brian King]

It is great that you want to help Jenna, and I hope that some authorities have been able to intervene for the young lady.

It is important I think that before, during, and especially after any of the interactions such as that you describe above, Jenna, that you remember you. It is important I think that we continuously monitor our own internal state and take any actions needed to return to and to maintain a calm, centered, neutral internal state. This is especially so during high stress or dangerous situations. Law enforcement officers will testify that domestic cases can be very dangerous and ones involving minors not only have all that danger potential but can also be very emotionally heavy for all those involved. Families and individuals in crises are living in an emotional chaos that is contagious if precautions are not taken. It is one of the hidden costs of getting involved.

Not having social or legal power limits what one might be able to immediately accomplish and these limitations might be difficult on a persons ego creating internal conflict. We all want to feel like we can make a difference but sometimes that very want can cloud both the motivation and even the results of the endeavor. Remembering that we are limited in our legal and social power is important. Might not this limitation - like all limitations also be a strength? If notifying legals has not accomplished the goals, if applying what social ‘pressure’ able also has not netted satisfying results, might not the limitations then help to focus like a laser a persons intent, perspective, and immediate and long tern goals on what realistically can be accomplished?

“Becoming the aggressor” There is a time for violence and sometimes even a moral responsibility to use it, yet, we must as moral creatures must strive to not confront evil with evil. Taking a bat (cricket or baseball) to this young father might feel good, might save the girl some beating (for now) but long tern - will it solve the critical issues? What lessons might each learn, the father, mother and child (siblings).The father that does not know how or choses to be a miserable father, might well only learn that bullying and violence work - just for now - someone is better at it than he and he will need to strike out to reset his righteousness and ego and will find a victim worthy even if he must recruit help from others. The mother will again see her man is bad light, might feel guilty for trying to stand by him in these difficult times, might blame the child. The young person will learn that violence solves violence but, they are too weak or fearful to make moral use of it. There may be guilt and emotional battering absorbed by the young person who has to live with the consequences of the actions of others.

There is a military maxim - “To engage a target one becomes a target.” Meaning that all violence has a cost and to use violence a person must be willing to live (and perhaps die) with that cost. Often the costs are unseen, unintended, and discounted in the beginning, never the less, they will be paid.

So, if the use of violence is out or at least delayed are there some steps that can be taken? I think so. a few examples of possible steps follow.
First, give up the idea of using aggressive violence. Living it out mentally negatively effects emotionally, spiritually, and physically anybody stuck in that fantasy loop. There is also the lost cost of wasted energy fantasizing about using violence rather than looking for healthy perspectives, opinions, and options.

Second, get a healthy perspective on what can be accomplished. For example, by modeling healthy boundaries a person can teach another how to set up their own boundaries. The same with living with grace - by modeling grace - a person can teach others how it is done, forgiveness is the same. Sure, the taught might only be getting a seedling of the lesson. But who knows what that seed might produce someday in the down the line.

Third, realize that when a farmer plants corn - to wish for watermelon come summer is just wishful thinking. Sometimes - we can see people on a path and from our experience see that the path is not taking them where they want to go. Sometimes we can help them see a better path and to take that first step, but, ultimately it is up to the traveler. If they choose to continue on the original path, then neither the traveler nor the observer should be shocked or disappointed that the corn seed produced corn.

Forth, realize that sometimes we are the lesson and sometimes the lesson is for us. We should take the time needed to reflect and try to learn the lessons. Are we the fly or the windshield? Sometimes distance is needed to see the lesson as it is always easier to see the trail taken than the one ahead. By looking back at events we can often see where paths crossed and which decisions made the better sense. We might not be able to see what effect we are having on our own path let alone someone else’s journey today, but, with patience and a willingness to now and then look backward we can perhaps see. Understanding that it is easier to end up at a desired location (goal) by following a known path rather than wondering around merely hoping to end up at the desired location should provide the motivation needed to check both backward and forward as we travel/live. Sometimes the lessons are difficult and heartbreaking. Sometimes God whispers - sometimes God yells and whacks us upside the head. Both messages are sent to get our attention and focus. Easier by far to listen to the whispers I think, yet it is often more difficult especially if we are struck dumb by our own stubbornness, arrogance, and laziness.

Who knows Jenna, what help you have already provided this unfortunate family. Perhaps, the seed planted yesterday will sprout into a might oak. Perhaps the seed is not meant for the family but for you Jenna, and with nourishment who knows of what good might be born of it.

Good luck to you Jenna and to that family
Brian King

 

[Jenna]

Brian!!! you are such a blessing my friend.. all of what you have said has struck me like an arrow. I have had much cause to get my reasoning in line with these thoughts you have had all along.. I am not wise or accustomed and but the lesson it has been put there to learn.. Your words are an enlightenment to me so much that I could not reply until I swallowed it back..

This girl, she is me back in the place where I had no person to defend me either.. and my dad could box.. Some thing you said made me think the circumstances of my even being here defy synchronicity and coincidence I was not even meant to be in this city or even this country and believe me I despise the systems of this country because of how these people are vilified.. Brian does it make sense what I am saying? I am here revisiting myself like I was 15yr ago only I am trying to be to her what was not there for me when I was beaten.. then all of this means the thing I have to do is to find compassion for this man like I could not hate my own father no matter what he did on me.. that is the irony of it all.. I would not have paused to understand any of this properly Brian had I not read what you wrote here.. Your insight is very special.. what I would do for your lucidity..

Your first point you are correct and I cannot argue and you would be just in shutting me down were I to try..

Your second point is where I am right now and it is pushing all of my buttons and still it brings the feeling of right purpose.. how do you come by all of this Brian?? It is like you are here looking over my shoulder? I should refuse to be surprised by now! I am not bound by my wish to see a particular result because users of substance are temperamental and the family are in bits because of it the girl has been using the razor to cut her self.. we will see is all I can say..

Your third point was what I had thought also Brian and I will explain what has happened to make it clearer.. and maybe you would be happy with me?? Because what has happened I am somehow a step ahead of my limited understanding and have taken about it another way.. after sage advice given here and elsewhere I had sought it, I had engaged the help of and begged to impose upon all who I could.. This community they have no access to state medical here so it was required to be paid for in cash.. anyway it is a positive result because the father through our slyness and persuasion over his fleeting late-at-night sobriety - I knew the words to say to him they were the words I had said to my own father.. and also money I had earned while I was here.. the father when he was placated became agreeable to a detox in a clinic here.. this as I type is his first week and a bit over and done already and I am more than surprised and but he has stayed in the centre though we have not been permitted to visit with him yet.. I do not know if I am wise to spend money on this though it is done now.. I am shamed to admit yes I had unwelcome thoughts about what I could do to him and how I could justify it.. Please do not be shouty with me and but I did have to gain his compliance physically on number of occasions when he had went in a fury and but I promise I did not lay one finger on him beyond that.. hurting is not my way.. hey I am Aikido and but I will protect her..

You are right, I do not know what is the season or harvest for all of this or what it will lead to.. it is like trying to untangle an hundred knots from an hundred different ropes and I am no sailor or girlguide.. If you have prayers I will always take them and put them where they are needed thank you my friend for your courtesy to me in replying.. if I had a hug big enough to express my gratitude... Jxxx