Article on Krav Maga

[Hanzou]

Another thing I stated in my article is that KM doesn't have a strict curriculum. This means that every KM practitioner will know different methods for escaping the same situation. Undoubtedly, this does give rise to fake and dangerous techniques.

Except it isn't only the techniques that are silly, it's the entire concept of needing to learn how to escape a guard in a self defense context. In BJJ, we only learn how to escape Guard for sport purposes. Same goes for MMA where you might come up against a skilled grappler in the Octagon and need to learn how to escape.

The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.

 

[stanly stud]

Except it isn't only the techniques that are silly, it's the entire concept of needing to learn how to escape a guard in a self defense context. In BJJ, we only learn how to escape Guard for sport purposes. Same goes for MMA where you might come up against a skilled grappler in the Octagon and need to learn how to escape.

The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.

I think another important point is you need to have some Balls about you. You can train all these fancy techniques for years but in a real fight all Dojo stuff goes out the window. The most savage and aggresive will win. some people are just natural fighters and fast. are martial arts useless? no of course not but you need the mentality to utilize what you´re learning. you need to stand your ground & sometimes take hits & carry on.

 

[Hanzou]

I think another important point is you need to have some Balls about you. You can train all these fancy techniques for years but in a real fight all Dojo stuff goes out the window. The most savage and aggresive will win. some people are just natural fighters and fast. are martial arts useless? no of course not but you need the mentality to utilize what you´re learning. you need to stand your ground & sometimes take hits & carry on.

Agreed. I mean look at this video;

You can just tell who has the "balls" and who's going to get their *** kicked. Make it so bad, the MMA guy said he decided to take up the challenge himself because his students are younger and crazier than he is and would have really hurt this dork.

 

[Ivan]

The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.

"The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"

 

[JowGaWolf]

Honestly that video is a reflection of the issues with getting your feedback from these drills and scenarios that op mentions.

If they are done badly.

Basically factored in you have this idea that say, I punch you in the nuts you have to let me progress. So what happens is you get attacked. Do rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, nut punch, you take the next position rubbish, rubbish and so on.

It literally never prepares you for a contest for dominance. Because you always have an escape clause.

Eg.

Have I mentioned how much I dislike industry training?

So this guy has one job. Teach a basic sprawl. But because there is no proper feedback. This one basic task gets turned in to something pointless.

And it is weird. So many people do this.

I was just having a look at that series and it is consistently dreadful. And he should have half a clue. He has a decent resume.

Richard Nance

yeah you are right.

He also breaks my #1 rule for defending against a take down. When someone tries to me down. I must first address the grappling attempt and then I can strike. Punching one's way out of a grappling attempt just isn't what I would recommend. Address the Grappling then follow up with striking, but only when the risk from the grappling has been lowered.

This isn't a reality for me. He also breaks my #1 rule for defending against a take down. When someone tries to me down. I must first address the grappling attempt and then I can strike. They always forget to factor in that forward momentum that comes with a take down like that.

 

[Ivan]

Jokes aside, upon reading your article, some rather obvious red flags stuck out to me. First and foremost, the idea that you don't do sparring and claim that this prepares you for self defense is laughable, and so is the reasoning behind it. Think about this from a logical standpoint; If you've NEVER actually done something, how do you know you can do it?

For example, groin kicks. You do know that some people aren't phased by kicks to the groin right? So what if your entire attack strategy revolves around kicking someone in the nuts (like that hilarious video I posted above) and it doesn't work?

In BJJ we practice choking, and we choke someone until they submit. If they don't submit, they pass out. However, there are some people who you simply aren't able to choke in certain positions, which is why it's invaluable for us to roll full blast to see what works and what doesn't work. If my entire strategy revolved around the triangle choke for example, and I never trained to deal with someone who simply can't be choked out with that choke, I'm royally screwed. However, since I have dealt with people like that, I know that I can immediately move out of the choke and go for arm bars, sweeps, or shoulder locks instead.

This is also why we've removed the "deadly" techniques from practice; so that we can practice the "safe" techniques over and over again against fully resistant partners until we master them. Learning the technique isn't enough, you have to know how to APPLY the technique as well.

Back to the triangle choke for example #2; I learned the triangle choke fairly early in my training. I knew it was effective, and I knew how to do it, however I simply could never get it to work for ME. It took years to develop an effective triangle choke, and frankly I would have never known I needed to work on it if it wasn't for sparring/rolling. Yeah, I would slap the legs together right, yeah I would grab the back of their head and push down, but I simply wasn't choking them. So I decided to spend 6 months just training the triangle until I got it right. Every roll I started from guard just so that I could practice that one technique because I knew it was important for self defense. Eventually I got it, and I had one of the best triangle chokes in my gym.

About a year later I got into a self defense situation where the triangle choke saved my life. If I had never sparred and just thought I "knew" the technique, I'd probably be pushing up daises right now.

I also can't stress just how terrible the concept of feint striking is. I'm not sure I read this correctly, but are you saying that you guys are purposely pulling punches? Are you actually getting hit at this school? I can unequivocally tell you right now that if you're training for self defense, you need to know how to take a full on strike, and you need to know HOW to strike. And the only way you learn that is by hitting a moving target trying to knock your block off.

Finally, the combat sports comment is just silly. Yeah we fight with "rules", but that doesn't mean that what we're doing still won't kill or maim you. If I hold my choke for a few minutes after you've passed out, you're dead. If I get some clown in a kimura and keep moving my body in the same direction, their shoulder is going to pop. If get them in a heel hook, they're not walking for a long time. This nonsense about "rules" is just silly talk, because people in combat sports know how to actually do the deed. They do it constantly, over and over again, against trained, resisting partners.

Boxers probably have more rules than any other combat sport/MA out there. I'd tell someone to train there before I'd recommend any Krav Maga school.

In the end, I'm happy you've found a martial art you enjoy. Unfortunately, I'm afraid you've drunk a little too much of their Kool-Aid. Cross-train in some other styles and see if your viewpoint changes. If not, good luck.

The combat sports comment is completely rational. I never claimed the techniques they teach won't work, I claimed that fighters will be too one-dimensional to use their full potential in an environment where there are no rules. That isn't to say that they can't handle themselves, just that the techniques styles have removed such as the backhand in boxing, would give them a better edge.

As for the lack of sparring, it's not that they won't spar, it's that they can't. You can't spar with a system where 5 in 6 moves include eye gouges, groin kicks, dislocations, and elbows to the teeth. They have drills to replace this such as the 360 defense.

I am going to completely disregard your groin kick comment...

I'd tell someone who wants to get fitter and learn some self defense to use boxing myself because it is easier to pick up. But if I was in a street fight, I'd pick KM any day.

 

[JowGaWolf]

traditional styles - it was their way or the highway.

Most TMA schools are like this even the ones who are good at what they do. There are techniques in the school that can really damage people so for safety reasons, it's good to have everyone in that mind set. The problem comes from when teacher apply that to Everything.

 

[stanly stud]

"The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"

well there is no real defence against a gun..all the stuff you see is i suppose is a very last resort. If you make yourself a target then you get zapped. now why does the British army still train Bayonet ? because close quarter fighting is important. The japanese trained in a system i believe called Juken jutsu & it is effective. I think for me the best systems are weapon orientated such as escrima. you learn attacks with a knife..etc & defence(mostly with another weapon no dreaming here). no other systems cover all this in my humble opinion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"

I've been at gun point before and it's never like what we seen in the demos.. Most people who have the gun try to stay out of grabbing distance. They understand that they don't want you to grab the weapon and are just as happy to shoot you in the body as they are to shoot you in the head.

I've video of people fighting over a gun, but even then the set up isn't like what they show in the gun self defense videos. Look at any armed store robbery and you'll clearly see that people just don't threat others with a gun that way. A lot of times there's a counter in between . Police on the other hand have a different scenario that happens often enough. Where someone is trying to take the officer's gun, but very few of those scenarios look like one that is often show cased by martial arts.

I was able to talk my out of harm when I had a gun held to my head. That was good enough for me. It was like walking a type rope of not appearing to be tough and not being scared as to much of either could encourage or anger.

 

[stanly stud]

I've been at gun point before and it's never like what we seen in the demos.. Most people who have the gun try to stay out of grabbing distance. They understand that they don't want you to grab the weapon and are just as happy to shoot you in the body as they are to shoot you in the head.

I've video of people fighting over a gun, but even then the set up isn't like what they show in the gun self defense videos. Look at any armed store robbery and you'll clearly see that people just don't threat others with a gun that way. A lot of times there's a counter in between . Police on the other hand have a different scenario that happens often enough. Where someone is trying to take the officer's gun, but very few of those scenarios look like one that is often show cased by martial arts.

I was able to talk my out of harm when I had a gun held to my head. That was good enough for me. It was like walking a type rope of not appearing to be tough and not being scared as to much of either could encourage or anger.

True story.. i remember we was in Canada on exercises in Medicine hat (Batus) a big training area & a Royal scot (scottish infantry Regiment before they amalgimated all the regiments ) took a pistol of a cop & hit him over the head with it. He was still in jail when we took over...haha. but yeah no need to be a hero when a gun is at your head. you survived that´s what counts .

 

[Ivan]

I've been at gun point before and it's never like what we seen in the demos.. Most people who have the gun try to stay out of grabbing distance. They understand that they don't want you to grab the weapon and are just as happy to shoot you in the body as they are to shoot you in the head.

I've video of people fighting over a gun, but even then the set up isn't like what they show in the gun self defense videos. Look at any armed store robbery and you'll clearly see that people just don't threat others with a gun that way. A lot of times there's a counter in between . Police on the other hand have a different scenario that happens often enough. Where someone is trying to take the officer's gun, but very few of those scenarios look like one that is often show cased by martial arts.

I was able to talk my out of harm when I had a gun held to my head. That was good enough for me. It was like walking a type rope of not appearing to be tough and not being scared as to much of either could encourage or anger.

Honestly, I always thought the most stupid thing in action movies was antagonists holding people at gunpoint from less than 1 foot away. Nevertheless, just because you might never need it doesn't mean you shouldn't train in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hahaha. Perhaps it does sound like that. I don't believe traditional martial arts are inferior, I believe that their training methods are. Repetition simply doesn't work for such arts as most of the repetitions are done on partners that, in some cases without noticing, don't provide enough resistance to give the learner a fair knowledge of what to expect when applying this technique.

I brought this issue up in my traditional jiu-jitsu class and they said such training doesn't begin until I reached a black belt. But in other words, it means anyone who is training in this martial art who hasn't yet reached a black belt is in big trouble if they get into a street fight. In contrast, Krav Maga made me feel ready to apply the techniques it taught me from the very first lesson, as the techniques are applied quickly and forcefully from the get-go.

Did they really oppose your techniques with real aggression from the start?

 

[JowGaWolf]

but you need the mentality to utilize what you´re learning

This is the most overlooked issue which is probably why I really don't like a lot of zen in my martial arts. If the zen helps clear my head so I can commit a horrible act then I'm all for it. If the zen is only to put me at peace then I don't like it.

Come to think of it, I didn't like this show either. lol

 

[stanly stud]

This is the most overlooked issue which is probably why I really don't like a lot of zen in my martial arts. If the zen helps clear my head so I can commit a horrible act then I'm all for it. If the zen is only to put me at peace then I don't like it.

Come to think of it, I didn't this show either. lol

mate i have seen people learning Modern Ju jitsu systems thinking they can use it on the cobbles (on the street) all that will happen is they will get badly hurt or worse. mostly office types or white coller workers i think they say in the US. I honestly despair when i meet these people. The only systems that i like are escrima or a boxing system. I am not saying i am Bruce Lee but i am talking from real life experiences.

 

[drop bear]

Except it isn't only the techniques that are silly, it's the entire concept of needing to learn how to escape a guard in a self defense context. In BJJ, we only learn how to escape Guard for sport purposes. Same goes for MMA where you might come up against a skilled grappler in the Octagon and need to learn how to escape.

The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.

I wouldn't go that far. You should at least understand the position. But you probably don't really need a guard pass because hitting and standing up is the simplest option.

 

[drop bear]

well there is no real defence against a gun..all the stuff you see is i suppose is a very last resort. If you make yourself a target then you get zapped. now why does the British army still train Bayonet ? because close quarter fighting is important. The japanese trained in a system i believe called Juken jutsu & it is effective. I think for me the best systems are weapon orientated such as escrima. you learn attacks with a knife..etc & defence(mostly with another weapon no dreaming here). no other systems cover all this in my humble opinion.

The British did a successful bayonet charge in Afghanistan.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

mate i have seen people learning Modern Ju jitsu systems thinking they can use it on the cobbles (on the street) all that will happen is they will get badly hurt or worse. mostly office types or white coller workers i think they say in the US. I honestly despair when i meet these people. The only systems that i like are escrima or a boxing system. I am not saying i am Bruce Lee but i am talking from real life experiences.

I am a big fan of boxing, for the same reasons you and Kemposhot cited. That being said, you mentioned being taught techniques that were derived from Aikido... One of my first Aikido instructors was retired NYPD. He had started out in Karate, but found the kicks impractical with a gun belt, and concluded that Aikido was more applicable to his job as a police officer. It clearly worked for him, as he stuck with it, and he showed me some of the more practical Aikido he learned on the beat... That was a scary class.

I will also say that BJJ literally saved my life, as well as that of the friend I was protecting from our attacker (attacker too, for that matter). I personally have NO desire to go to the ground, but the fact of the matter is, it's a good backup plan for if you get tackled, like I did.

 

[drop bear]

The combat sports comment is completely rational. I never claimed the techniques they teach won't work, I claimed that fighters will be too one-dimensional to use their full potential in an environment where there are no rules. That isn't to say that they can't handle themselves, just that the techniques styles have removed such as the backhand in boxing, would give them a better edge.

As for the lack of sparring, it's not that they won't spar, it's that they can't. You can't spar with a system where 5 in 6 moves include eye gouges, groin kicks, dislocations, and elbows to the teeth. They have drills to replace this such as the 360 defense.

I am going to completely disregard your groin kick comment...

I'd tell someone who wants to get fitter and learn some self defense to use boxing myself because it is easier to pick up. But if I was in a street fight, I'd pick KM any day.

It works the other way. And this comes back to my comments about drills not really giving the feedback that you want them to sort of.

So say you train the deadly eye gouge. And someone else trains a jab. But they train the jab live against a bunch of resisting opponents and you stand there and poke holes in an orange or something.

They will have the advantage in an eye gouge off because they will have the better basic functional tools of hitting people and not getting hit.

Which is by far better than having perfect technique. (Or at least the perception of perfect technique)

So what happens is there is a very small area where you have the specialist advantage vs a very big area where they have the general advantage.

So yes I have caught good boxers with a back fist because they don't expect it. But if they are good boxers they have caught me with everything else.

 

[drop bear]

I am a big fan of boxing, for the same reasons you and Kemposhot cited. That being said, you mentioned being taught techniques that were derived from Aikido... One of my first Aikido instructors was retired NYPD. He had started out in Karate, but found the kicks impractical with a gun belt, and concluded that Aikido was more applicable to his job as a police officer. It clearly worked for him, as he stuck with it, and he showed me some of the more practical Aikido he learned on the beat... That was a scary class.

I will also say that BJJ literally saved my life, as well as that of the friend I was protecting from our attacker (attacker too, for that matter). I personally have NO desire to go to the ground, but the fact of the matter is, it's a good backup plan for if you get tackled, like I did.

I did the security/Aikido thing.

It was really bad.

Basically we took a low percentage option. Trained it in an unsafe way. Then trained that technically poorly. And then taught that to other people.

 

[drop bear]

It works the other way. And this comes back to my comments about drills not really giving the feedback that you want them to sort of.

So say you train the deadly eye gouge. And someone else trains a jab. But they train the jab live against a bunch of resisting opponents and you stand there and poke holes in an orange or something.

They will have the advantage in an eye gouge off because they will have the better basic functional tools of hitting people and not getting hit.

Which is by far better than having perfect technique. (Or at least the perception of perfect technique)

So what happens is there is a very small area where you have the specialist advantage vs a very big area where they have the general advantage.

So yes I have caught good boxers with a back fist because they don't expect it. But if they are good boxers they have caught me with everything else.

And you can see this with almost every eye gouging demonstration where generally every other factor of striking that keeps you safe is done wrong.

They stand directly in front at this terrible range. Fire out the eye gouge and then do almost nothing else. ( And beating your now pretend incapacitated parter doesn't count as something)