Are you bound by tradition?

[drop bear]

Yes, and this is the point of the book

It helps you understand principles and how they apply to every style and the human body.

Can you give an example of what you mean by seeing weaknesses in your primary art?

I mentioned it in the knife video. If I stand directly in front of a guy see his attack. Then respond to an attack. I am not very likley to be able to do anything in time.

But for years I worked on that premise and just assumed I could get really fast or something and deal with it that way.

Untill I joined a club that adressed that by positioning so the attack was slower and pre-empting based on averages.

That different outlook didn't change the method. Just the understanding of that method.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"System A vs System B"

The person who taught me the WC system told me that in one Hong Kong tournament that Yeh Men's student sparred with a CLF guy. The CLF guy used a right hook. The WC guy blocked with left Tan Shou. The CLF guy's right hook knocked down the WC guy's left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. After that day, Yeh Men told his students to block a right hook with right Tan Shou.

I believed in the WC sparring, since the hook punch may not be used that often (WC guys like to use straight punch), to use Tan Shou to block a powerful body rotation hook punch may not be tested enough.

One time I sparred with a TKD guy. I stayed in very low stance. My opponent could not use his favor high kicks. Since he was not used to throw low kicks, he refused to spar with me after that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In this case, don't fight the style, fight the opponent. Make it more personal using tactics, exploiting his individual combat behavior - reactions and preferences as well as his particular physical skills. While the opponent's system has strategic implications, it's the individual that provides the tactical opportunities that will be the major factor.

I originally misunderstood what you were focusing on. I was talking about Style A vs Style B and you were offering Style A vs Style a advice. Got it. I've been sick for the past week, so my brain is a little out of focus lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The person who taught me the WC system told me that in one Hong Kong tournament that Yeh Men's student sparred with a CLF guy. The CLF guy used a right hook. The WC guy blocked with left Tan Shou. The CLF guy's right hook knocked down the WC guy's left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. After that day, Yeh Men told his students to block a right hook with right Tan Shou.

I believed in the WC sparring, since the hook punch may not be used that often (WC guys like to use straight punch), to use Tan Shou to block a powerful body rotation hook punch may not be tested enough.

One time I sparred with a TKD guy. I stayed in very low stance. My opponent could not use his favor high kicks. Since he was not used to throw low kicks, he refused to spar with me after that.

There is only one way to discover things like this. I like it because it adds a new perspective to what we already train. It helps us to see things that we may have missed.

I think the TKD guy gave up too quick. TKD has low kicks. To give up when a person can't do his favorite attack is not a good mindset to have.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

There are a variety of responses here which are very informative. Some people are more open to new ideas and concepts than others. Each of us has our own reasons for training, therefore we will all have different aims. The emphasis on groundwork these days shows how influential the Gracie clan were in altering the mindsets of the masses. Prior to their appearance it was rarely discussed. BJJ became extremely popular soon after the first UFC event. It was also around this time the industry began speaking about how many fights go to the ground in reality

 

[Taiji Rebel]

- A long fist guy can't do a hip throw.
- A Chinese wrestling guy can't do a roundhouse kick.
- A praying mantis guy is lacking knock down power.
- A Baji guy can't throw 4 punches within 1 second.

Why are these considered weaknesses?

A sprinter uses different training drills, techniques and nutrition plans than a marathon runner

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why are these considered weaknesses?

A sprinter uses different training drills, techniques and nutrition plans than a marathon runner

It's still a weakness. A boxer isn't trained in kicks, so kicking (and defending against them) will be a weakness for that system. It's an unimportant weakness within the system, but can become important outside that context.

Same with that sprinter, who is probably not good at distance running. They probably ought to be aware of that before deciding to challenge a marathoner to a race of a few miles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I mentioned it in the knife video. If I stand directly in front of a guy see his attack. Then respond to an attack. I am not very likley to be able to do anything in time.

But for years I worked on that premise and just assumed I could get really fast or something and deal with it that way.

Untill I joined a club that adressed that by positioning so the attack was slower and pre-empting based on averages.

That different outlook didn't change the method. Just the understanding of that method.

DB, can you expound on that third paragraph? I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're talking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you only ever trained NGA (Nihon Goshin Aikido - my primary art), within schools using the curriculum introduced in the US, you'd likely think you had some decent grasp of groundwork. If you visited an old-school Judo school (they did more groundwork back then than I understand to be typical today) or a BJJ school or an MMA gym, you'd quickly understand how weak that ground game is. You'd also start to learn how to apply NGA's principles (and some of techniques) more effectively on the ground than the NGA curriculum teaches.

Expanding on this post from the other day, I'll also add that reading a book wouldn't expose this weakness. The principles were there, and worked fine against those similarly trained. But anyone with a smidge of real experience on the ground and some good instruction behind it could overwhelm.

I had the advantage of having had a bit of ground training in the short time I was in Judo years before I started NGA. Even that small amount of other experience let me overmatch people much larger and stronger than me (I'm 5'10" and 175 lbs., and bested partners who were up to about 6'3" and over 210 lbs.). And I was overmatched (until I altered my game) by BJJ blue belt level folks. Getting to experience that let me revisit what I vaguely remembered from Judo, tweak the groundwork from NGA, and leverage the basic principles used in our standing approach, to assemble something that held up much better outside the art.

 

[drop bear]

DB, can you expound on that third paragraph? I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're talking about.

At its most basic. People will punch at what is in front of them. If I don't sit my face there, they are less likley to punch me.

Now it doesn't matter where my face goes so long as it doesn't sit directly in front of someone.

So then I don't have to wait for a punch to come to move my head. Which means I don't have to see the punch coming to dodge it. (There is more to it than that. But as a basic example)

So the whole trick is constantly being in the worst place for them to attack.

There are some styles that prioritize this. Boxing for example.

But you could have any style and employ this and you would just be better.

as a side note. If you do one step drills but for some reason mess up when they randomise the feed. But also for some reason don't have the same issue in sparring.

That is why.

 

[drop bear]

DB, can you expound on that third paragraph? I want to make sure I'm understanding what you're talking about.

So the idea is your footwork and position automatically takes care of a percentage of their attacks.

Then your guard automatically takes care of a percentage of their attacks.

And all you do is intelligently deal with what is left.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

It's still a weakness. A boxer isn't trained in kicks, so kicking (and defending against them) will be a weakness for that system. It's an unimportant weakness within the system, but can become important outside that context.

Same with that sprinter, who is probably not good at distance running. They probably ought to be aware of that before deciding to challenge a marathoner to a race of a few miles.

Why would a sprinter have any desire to challenge a marathoner?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Expanding on this post from the other day, I'll also add that reading a book wouldn't expose this weakness. The principles were there, and worked fine against those similarly trained. But anyone with a smidge of real experience on the ground and some good instruction behind it could overwhelm.

Nobody claimed reading a book would do this

 

[marvin8]

At its most basic. People will punch at what is in front of them. If I don't sit my face there, they are less likley to punch me.

Now it doesn't matter where my face goes so long as it doesn't sit directly in front of someone.

Not sure of the context your discussing. In boxing, you may want to entice the opponent to punch you, so that you can counter. Floyd Mayweather Jr, uses the pull/counter. He leans forward baiting his opponent to punch him. As his opponent attacks that position, Floyd pulls back then counters.

So then I don't have to wait for a punch to come to move my head. Which means I don't have to see the punch coming to dodge it. (There is more to it than that. But as a basic example)

So the whole trick is constantly being in the worst place for them to attack.

There are some styles that prioritize this. Boxing for example.

But you could have any style and employ this and you would just be better.

as a side note. If you do one step drills but for some reason mess up when they randomise the feed. But also for some reason don't have the same issue in sparring.

That is why.

So the idea is your footwork and position automatically takes care of a percentage of their attacks.

Then your guard automatically takes care of a percentage of their attacks.

And all you do is intelligently deal with what is left.

Yes, the layers of defense. If you want to score, you may lure the opponent out of position, enter and attack. Those physics remain the same regardless of style.

 

[marvin8]

Nobody claimed reading a book would do this

I'm currently reading, Principles and concepts for Martial Arts: Principles of Martial Arts for Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo and other grappling arts. It applies more to the martial and I recommend it.

 

[drop bear]

Not sure of the context your discussing. In boxing, you may want to entice the opponent to punch you, so that you can counter. Floyd Mayweather Jr, uses the pull/counter. He leans forward baiting his opponent to punch him. As his opponent attacks that position, Floyd pulls back then counters.


Yes, the layers of defense. If you want to score, you may lure the opponent out of position, enter and attack. Those physics remain the same regardless of style.

There is a bunch of stuff that concept does.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why are these considered weaknesses?

A sprinter uses different training drills, techniques and nutrition plans than a marathon runner

It's your weakness if you know

- power generation but don't know speed generation.
- speed generation but don't know power generation.
- striking art but don't know throwing art.
- throwing art but don't know striking art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why would a sprinter have any desire to challenge a marathoner?

I had someone challenged me arm wrestling in the public. You can always turn down the challenge. But you may not feel good about yourself for the rest of your life.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why would a sprinter have any desire to challenge a marathoner?

A weakness in a system doesn't imply it's something those people need. Fencing has a very big weakness in the ground game. It's irrelevant to what fencers are working on, so it's irrelevant to fencers.

Same goes for distance running for most sprinters. It's an irrelevant weakness, unless you're interested in being able to run distance at times, in which case you'd want to get training in that skill.

So, if I decide to study TKD, any weakness in the system (such as a lack of ground game) isn't really relevant if I'm only interested in it for its own sake, or I want to compete in TKD competitions. But if I'm studying for overall fighting ability (or something like MMA competition), I'd need to know about that weakness in my training, so I can decide how (or, indeed, whether) to remediate it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nobody claimed reading a book would do this

That was a tangential response to this post:

The book by Steven Pearlman addresses the underlying principles and mechanics of the human body and the martial arts. Once you recognize the underlying concepts it means you need not hop around, mixing and matching different parts from other arts. This book is worth its weight in gold to the martial artist who chooses to apply the lessons it shares.

There are things you can only learn by experience - including much of seeing the weaknesses in what you currently know. Reading a book might give some hints (if it refers to principles you don't understand, or points out some points you hadn't thought of).