Are Hapkido Techniques Good for TKD?

[Kong Soo Do]

It is my position that original (or 'old school') TKD effectively contained throws, chokes, balance displacement, locks etc. My instructor was third generation Han Moo Kwan. 'Hapkido' style techniques (as listed previously) were a staple part of the training from his Korean master(s). Later on the school (and apparentley the Kwan as a whole) took on a more 'Olympic' format and these types of movements were removed in favor of the more modern, linear sports training methodology.

Having done quite a bit of research, many of the various first generation leaders were quite adept in 'soft' techniques as well as the striking and kicking. A lot of this came from their Karate roots i.e. Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Shuri Ryu etc.

So I would submit that TKD could be very effectively infused with Hapkido style principles that enhance the overall art.

This is basically what we've done with Kong Soo Do. We've taken our TKD and HKD training (as well as other training) and blended it together into one discipline. The focus of which is self-defense. It has worked exceptionally well in real world altercations (I keep stats on myself and personal students). A TKD instructor could, with proper training, effectively blend TKD with such movements (or in my opinion, put them back in as they were originally there in the first place).

For us, it opens up a whole new level of training for our students.

 

[puunui]

This is basically what we've done with Kong Soo Do. We've taken our TKD and HKD training (as well as other training) and blended it together into one discipline. The focus of which is self-defense. It has worked exceptionally well in real world altercations (I keep stats on myself and personal students).

Why not choose a name for your art that better reflects your self defense emphasis? The name that comes to mind is Hoshinsool (Goshinjitsu in Japanese). I think that would be a better fit than Kong Soo Do.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Why not choose a name for your art that better reflects your self defense emphasis? The name that comes to mind is Hoshinsool (Goshinjitsu in Japanese). I think that would be a better fit than Kong Soo Do.

Thank you for the suggestion, but all the schools chose this one. As I put in the other thread, Dr. Yoon Kwe Byung studied under Kenwa Manbuni the founder of Shito Ryu. Manbuni was a police officer and very adept at the SD aspects of the art. KSD was used in our lineage and we felt it was a very good fit.

 

[puunui]

Thank you for the suggestion, but all the schools chose this one. As I put in the other thread, Dr. Yoon Kwe Byung studied under Kenwa Manbuni the founder of Shito Ryu. Manbuni was a police officer and very adept at the SD aspects of the art. KSD was used in our lineage and we felt it was a very good fit.

Mabuni Sensei also was a very big proponent of competitive sparring. You can see pictures of him wearing chest gear, gloves and holding a helmet. Most likely the idea of sparring with gear came from him. So for you to hold up Mabuni Sensei as the reason for your self defense orientation is not supported by the facts. As for everyone choosing the name, well that still does not justify its use, in my opinion. Even your own background in the Han Moo Kwan, GM LEE Kyo Yun, who I have met, at the Kukkiwon, and who mailed me a free autographed copy of his book, was in fact ALWAYS into the competition aspects. His best friend was GM LEE Byung Ro, who is credited with developing the steps used in modern Taekwondo competition.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Mabuni Sensei also was a very big proponent of competitive sparring.

He was also a very big proponent of SD due to his vocation.

As for everyone choosing the name, well that still does not justify its use, in my opinion.

We feel that it does. We feel that KSD is hand-in-hand with Karate which is our roots. We feel that originally, Karate was more of a civilian self-defense art (as do many practitioners of the various styles). So using the term Kong Soo Do in no way limits us to the sport methodology, which my student base has no use.

GM LEE Kyo Yun, who I have met, at the Kukkiwon, and who mailed me a free autographed copy of his book, was in fact ALWAYS into the competition aspects.

I'm very happy for you. Kyu In Baik (under Lee) was a big proponent of SD and passed that on to his students as well. And this in turn was passed on to me (as was much of my other training).

 

[puunui]

He was also a very big proponent of SD due to his vocation.

His vocation in Japan was full time karate instructor, an instructor who was like the other Okinawan practitioners in Japan at the time, wanted desparately to have Karate accepted along the same lines as Kendo and Judo. This meant changing Karate into a competiton oriented endeavor, which is why he is wearing the sparring equipment. He more than anyone else was leading the charge for karate sparring with equipment so that it could be full contact like Kendo and Judo.

We feel that it does. We feel that KSD is hand-in-hand with Karate which is our roots. We feel that originally, Karate was more of a civilian self-defense art (as do many practitioners of the various styles). So using the term Kong Soo Do in no way limits us to the sport methodology, which my student base has no use.

It might not limit you to the "sport methodology", but certainly the reasons and facts in which you based your decision is erroneous. If you wish to call your style Kong Soo Do, then go for it, but please do not use flawed facts, logic or reasoning in rationalizing your decision.

I'm very happy for you. Kyu In Baik (under Lee) was a big proponent of SD and passed that on to his students as well. And this in turn was passed on to me (as was much of my other training).

Is that how you address the founder of the kwan that you claim a lineage from, as "Lee"? And by the way, who is Kyu In Baik? I never heard of him.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Isn't Kong Su Do (공수&#46020 just the Korean reading of the kanji (空手&#36947 used in the 'way of the empty hand' version of Kara Te Do?

Seems so generic that it could include almost anything, especially given that karate comprises a large number of styles that are not exactly identical.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Isn't Kong Su Do (공수&#46020 just the Korean reading of the kanji (空手&#36947 used in the 'way of the empty hand' version of Kara Te Do?

Seems so generic that it could include almost anything, especially given that karate comprises a large number of styles that are not exactly identical.

Daniel

But the specific reasons why he claims his organization chose the name is what I am addressing, reasons which are based on erroneous presumptions and facts. Basically there is a lack of foundation for his opinions. He said based on this this and this, we chose the name Kong Soo Do. But this this and this is false.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

His vocation in Japan was full time karate instructor, an instructor who was like the other Okinawan practitioners in Japan at the time, wanted desparately to have Karate accepted along the same lines as Kendo and Judo.

Manbuni was also a police officer. The fact that you may have seen him in a picture with sparring gear in no way takes away from his use of Karate for its SD aspects. Did you know him personally? Did he relate to you personally that he was 'desparate' for anything in particular, or is this an assumption on your part? Your claiming to know the mind and motivations of a great many people that I don't think you've ever meet personally or sat down and talked with at length.

If you wish to call your style Kong Soo Do, then go for it, but please do not use flawed facts, logic or reasoning in rationalizing your decision.

We do wish to use the term Kong Soo Do and we have gone for it. And it was based upon sound facts and reasoning. I think this is more about you being offended at our difference of opinion on sport training vs. self-defense training but your not being honest enough to say so. Kong Soo Do is the same as Karate, as has been pointed out already by others. Karate, as a civilian method of self defense is very useful in personal protection. It may have degenerated (my opinion) into sport training due to people learning the children's version and passing it on, but that in no way limits it to just sport training. And since the term Kong Soo Do predates Taekwondo, it is closer to what we feel is the source i.e. Karate which, as a fact, was/is very effective as a civilian self defense method. As a clarification, the self defense aspects of the art, not the sport training used to teach the masses.

If you've taken offense, which I fully suspect you have, that is a shame. But it has been entirely of your own choice. I have had my data reviewed by more than one source, from more than one art over a period of years. As stated, some things are difficult to fully hang your hat on 100% with all the historical rewrites from Korean, but they were satisfied with the data and so am I. If you are not, well to be honest it is really not of major concern to me. I don't say that to be disrespectful to you, but rather that I respect those that have reviewed the data far more because I actually know them and their credentials.

Is that how you address the founder of the kwan that you claim a lineage from, as "Lee"?

Yes.

And by the way, who is Kyu In Baik? I never heard of him.

As I said, one of his students.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Isn't Kong Su Do (공수&#46020 just the Korean reading of the kanji (空手&#36947 used in the 'way of the empty hand' version of Kara Te Do?

Seems so generic that it could include almost anything, especially given that karate comprises a large number of styles that are not exactly identical.

Daniel

Thank you, this is correct.

 

[puunui]

Manbuni was also a police officer. The fact that you may have seen him in a picture with sparring gear in no way takes away from his use of Karate for its SD aspects. Did you know him personally? Did he relate to you personally that he was 'desparate' for anything in particular, or is this an assumption on your part? Your claiming to know the mind and motivations of a great many people that I don't think you've ever meet personally or sat down and talked with at length.

Really. I would ask you the same questions.

Did you know Mabuni Sensei (Not Manbuni) personally? Did he relate to you personally that he used the name Karatedo for self defense? I think you are the one claiming to know his mind, based on what he did in Okinawa for a brief period of time when he was 18, ignoring all of the other works that he did when he moved to Japan. But it isn't even Mabuni Sensei that is the issue, since he is NOT is your lineage. GM LEE Kyo Yun has said so. What more do you want?

We do wish to use the term Kong Soo Do and we have gone for it. And it was based upon sound facts and reasoning. I think this is more about you being offended at our difference of opinion on sport training vs. self-defense training but your not being honest enough to say so.

I am not offended at all by the use of Taekwondo or any martial art for self defense purposes. If I were offended at the use of martial arts for self defense, or if I wasn't into it myself, then I would have studied Hapkido or other martial arts for as long as I have. But if there is a factual error involved, then I will point that out.

Kong Soo Do is the same as Karate, as has been pointed out already by others. Karate, as a civilian method of self defense is very useful in personal protection. It may have degenerated (my opinion) into sport training due to people learning the children's version and passing it on, but that in no way limits it to just sport training. And since the term Kong Soo Do predates Taekwondo, it is closer to what we feel is the source i.e. Karate which, as a fact, was/is very effective as a civilian self defense method. As a clarification, the self defense aspects of the art, not the sport training used to teach the masses.

If you've taken offense, which I fully suspect you have, that is a shame. But it has been entirely of your own choice. I have had my data reviewed by more than one source, from more than one art over a period of years. As stated, some things are difficult to fully hang your hat on 100% with all the historical rewrites from Korean, but they were satisfied with the data and so am I.

One of my credentials is being the one who translated the book "A Modern History of Taekwondo" which you cite to on your webpage. But Ok, lets start with that then. Who reviewed your "research"?

If you are not, well to be honest it is really not of major concern to me. I don't say that to be disrespectful to you, but rather that I respect those that have reviewed the data far more because I actually know them and their credentials.

And on the same page, it isn't such a big deal as well, given the size of your organization. By the way, there is a Korea Kongsoodo Association in Korea. It works with WUKO, FAJKO, WKF or whatever organization is attempting to get Karate into the Olympics. It is not self defense oriented.

Yes.

That is quite revealing in itself and goes a long way to demonstrating your understanding of Korean culture, if not history.

As I said, one of his students.

Where did he teach and when?

 

[Master Dan]

Most students are the sum total of what thier master instructors experience is. Our GM was very accomplished besides TKD in Hapkido and Judo which certainly had an effect on our SD abilities. His very good friend Dr. Park that we had occasion to meet and train with in Hapkido stated that is was natural in Korea and the US to transition to Hapkido after 40 when they no longer feel physically fit to jump around like a young person?

Adding additional knowledge to your core Art only improves a persons ability to defend themselves as long as that knowledge and the ability to learn them from somone who can effectivly teach them and incorporate them with the TKD training is good. Bad teaching and application is the fault of the instructor and students not the combining or incorporation of another arts knowledge.

Every instructor should not hesitate to enhance thier ability to increase individual students survival and health using all tools available.

I think the real problem comes down to people going to one seminar or reading a book and then advertising they are a master in that particular thing and have no real quality of hands on experience.

 

[zDom]

Our GM was very accomplished besides TKD in Hapkido and Judo which certainly had an effect on our SD abilities. His very good friend Dr. Park that we had occasion to meet and train with in Hapkido stated that is was natural in Korea and the US to transition to Hapkido after 40 when they no longer feel physically fit to jump around like a young person

Who is your GM, and which Dr. Park are you referring to?

 

[tinker1]

I've trained in enough styles that I honestly forget where some of the stuff I know comes from.

My reality is that I don't care where a technique comes from. I only care that it works, and is easy to teach. The easy to teach thing comes into play with self defense stuff - those have to be very easy so they become second nature / instinct to people... if they have to think about it too much.. or if the technique as too many steps, it becomes un-useful when called upon at a time of high emotion.

Just my opinion.

 

[ATACX GYM]

HKD is EXCELLENT for TKD and vice versa. There ya are.