anyone heard of this style?

[JAMJTX]

Gene,

I had no idea that it was Mr. Kelley who went up to get the Hachi Dan/Hanshi papers signed. I was told the story about "some students" of Ruiz's who brought up the unsigned IKKU diplomas and a blank check. The story was that Kuniba filled in the balnk check for the amount that he wanted and then signed the certificates.
Now I see flaws in that story. I seriously doubt Shihan Kelley would have done that.
It is unfortunate that Hanshi Ruiz went the "Sokeship Council" route. Not just for his own self, but for his students who list him as thier teacher and then have to try and explain that away in order to not be tainted themselves.
Over the last few years I have also made some poor decisions about affiliations without fully checking out the organizations. I was hoping that perhaps that was the case with Mr. Ruiz. I will have to answer for my affiliation decisons for a long time and perhaps rightfully so. But I learned some valuable lessons.

 

[Brother John]

http://www.shihokarano.com/history.htm

 

[Gene Williams]

Curch and his problems have been discussed ad nauseum on this and other forums. The history of this yet another made up, eclectic system sheds no light on current issues with Motobu ha and the post Kuniba fallout. Nice outfit Riedner is wearing, though.

 

[Gene Williams]

Real Motobu Ryu, Gotent-te in Japanese, or Uchinadi Motobu Ryu, is a royal court style closely related to the tuite of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. It looks like fast Aikijujutsu and many weapons are also taught. It is true old school karate style, unlike Shito Ryu which is basically punch, kick, numerous kata, sparring karate. Two completely different animals. Real Motobu Ryu is very rare, like any good karate, and you won't find it in most places. You have to search.

The Motobu-Ha Shito dudes are Shito Ryu-ka who supposedly use Choki's fighting philosophies in their Mabuni Kenwa influenced Shito Ryu, a modern form of karate greatly influenced by Japanese methodology. Even their Naihanchi is different than Choki's. It is very similar to Shotokan. It is very unlike Matsubayashi, so I don't know where the supposed Choki Motobu influence comes from. I guess it's because Kenwa Shinshii did learn some things from Choki.

They are required to learn up to 50 kata! Very unorthodox for Okinawan karate. It is Japanese karate. You might as well do Wado Ryu, because at least Ohtsuka understood the importance of circular motion, lateral movement and grappling.

Hey there, Ippon Ken. You're a little off base in your assessment of Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, but you have raised an issue that is still a bone of contention within Shito-ryu. Actually, the Motobu ha that Kuniba brought from Mabuni was very Okinawan. In fact, all of Mabuni karate early on was very Okinawan. When he moved to Osaka in 1927 or '29, he became a very popular instructor and Shito-ryu exploded around Osaka. He produced a number of shihan, who then spread out through Japan and Europe, mostly, and began teaching their own brand of Shito-ryu. Some stayed close to the original, and some did not. In Japan, the longer Shito-ryu was there, the more Japanese influence got brought in. Meanwhile, on Okinawa, there was and still is Shito-ryu that only teach the original 26 or 28 kata that Mabuni taught, plus the few he developed. Kuniba trained with his father, Motobu, Mabuni, Sakagami, Myagi and later, Nagamine of Shorin. The main influence from Motobu is in applications and fighting techniques, not kata. Itosu/ Mabuni/Myagi remained the kata influence. Now, Motobu-ha Shito-ryu is nothing like Shotokan or Wado (I trained in Wado for four years while in Nashville BEFORE coming to Shito-ryu, and in Shorin before that). Demura and his group, Itosu Kai, brought tons of JKA stuff into their ryu so that at one point many of his dojo were learning both the Shotokan version of the Pinan (Heian) and the Okinawan version as requirements. This was ridiculous, and Demura finally cut that out. However, the Itosu Kai group's kata look a lot like Shotokan, something that bothers the rest of us. I don't know of but a couple of Shito groups that require more than 20 or 25 kata and Kotaka's group is one. No group requires 50 kata, but some have that many on their syllabus, but most of those are just alternate versions of standard kata. Now, about circular motion...that is something Kuniba was known for, so I don't know where you are getting your info. You have pointed out one thing, there is a lot of variation in Shito ryu from a lot like JKA to absolutely nothing like it. The Motobu ha I teach is nothing like it, in fact, I have students who were dan rank in JKA who have a great deal of trouble making the switch. I require about 25 kata from white belt to Godan. Gene

 

[kamishinkan]

Just another comment (I have not been on the site for some time) on the Church argument over if Kuniba sensei sanctioned Church sensei or not. It just so happens that I have PICTURES of Kuniba sensei himself cross ranking one of Church sensei's black belts at Church sensei's dojo in 1980 (right after Church sensei died). Kuniba sensei came down and went as far as giving a certificate backing to Catherine Church (Church sensei's wife) as Kaicho of her own organization continuing teaching her "version" of Church sensei's Kamishin Ryu. I also have a photo copy of a Nidan certificate given to one of Church sensei's black belts at that time (I can put my hands on the original at anytime). As far as the "scroll" only being partially translated, it is because of the poor quality of the copy not because of the poor quality of the kanji! As far as the the person who translated what could be recognized on the scroll, you can question Guy Power sensei yourself and see if he is biased or if he is truthful in his translation. I find it funny that so much space is used on these forums trying to prove/disprove Church sensei's claims. Once again I have pictures that would answer most of this, (as far as Kuniba sensei goes) but I am sure someone will come up with something else to keep arguing the point. If anyone is studying a version of Kamishin Ryu and is concerned about the truth of our history, DON'T BE, I can prove almost all of Church sensei's claims(a couple of things have not been proven OR DISPROVEN). There will always be the naysayers!

 

[Ippon Ken]

Hey there, Ippon Ken. You're a little off base in your assessment of Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, but you have raised an issue that is still a bone of contention within Shito-ryu. Actually, the Motobu ha that Kuniba brought from Mabuni was very Okinawan. In fact, all of Mabuni karate early on was very Okinawan. When he moved to Osaka in 1927 or '29, he became a very popular instructor and Shito-ryu exploded around Osaka. He produced a number of shihan, who then spread out through Japan and Europe, mostly, and began teaching their own brand of Shito-ryu. Some stayed close to the original, and some did not. In Japan, the longer Shito-ryu was there, the more Japanese influence got brought in. Meanwhile, on Okinawa, there was and still is Shito-ryu that only teach the original 26 or 28 kata that Mabuni taught, plus the few he developed. Kuniba trained with his father, Motobu, Mabuni, Sakagami, Myagi and later, Nagamine of Shorin. The main influence from Motobu is in applications and fighting techniques, not kata. Itosu/ Mabuni/Myagi remained the kata influence. Now, Motobu-ha Shito-ryu is nothing like Shotokan or Wado (I trained in Wado for four years while in Nashville BEFORE coming to Shito-ryu, and in Shorin before that). Demura and his group, Itosu Kai, brought tons of JKA stuff into their ryu so that at one point many of his dojo were learning both the Shotokan version of the Pinan (Heian) and the Okinawan version as requirements. This was ridiculous, and Demura finally cut that out. However, the Itosu Kai group's kata look a lot like Shotokan, something that bothers the rest of us. I don't know of but a couple of Shito groups that require more than 20 or 25 kata and Kotaka's group is one. No group requires 50 kata, but some have that many on their syllabus, but most of those are just alternate versions of standard kata. Now, about circular motion...that is something Kuniba was known for, so I don't know where you are getting your info. You have pointed out one thing, there is a lot of variation in Shito ryu from a lot like JKA to absolutely nothing like it. The Motobu ha I teach is nothing like it, in fact, I have students who were dan rank in JKA who have a great deal of trouble making the switch. I require about 25 kata from white belt to Godan. Gene

Okinawan Shito Ryu has always been a great style. It is very similar to its Shorin cousin. Thanks for the clarification. As for circular motion it is inherent in all good karate. I was just stating the fact that a lot of the Shito Ryu seen in the USA and at tournaments is a modern more Japanized variety. These versions are very low-stanced and linear, not unlike Shotokan. I won't comment on Church or any of the political infighting, as I the style I practice is notorious for the same crap.

I was clarifying the fact that Motobu Ryu and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu were two different animals completely. Thanks for the corrections on the overgeneralizations I made, and the truth is I have the utmost respect for any good karate style.

Speaking of animals. Do you still teach the "White Possum" kata? Later, Gene-san !

 

[Gene Williams]

Yes...White Possum lives

 

[robertmrivers]

Hello all:


Just my .02...

There are several factions of Motobu ha...as everyone knows. Politics are not exempt from even the greatest martial arts style. There is Price Sensei's group, Ruiz' Sensei's group, Kuniba derivatives like Church and then his derivatives (I have video of Kuniba demonstrating at Church's Memorial Embu...why would he do this if he didn't support Church) as well as the Seishinkai headed by Soke Harada in Osaka and Kunibakai headed by Soke Kuniba. The International Division from Japan of both Kunibakai and Seishinkai have now found renewed interest...which is what Kuniba Shogo Sensei wanted in the first place. His early death was unfortunate, but, things are now starting to straighten up and from what I understand, past Motobu ha practitioners are happy where they are now and growing their respective organizations without near the "name calling" and "kai-bashing" that existed in the early 90's.

I can't remember all of the questions...so I will just share some things I have learned...

In my opinion, Motobu ha is the most Okinawan of the Shito Ryu. We can thank the Kuniba family for this. When Okinawan masters see footage of it, they say it looks similar to Kobayashi (Shigeru Nakazato), probably due to Kuniba's study under Choshin Chibana. Naturally, there are some differences between the several Motobu ha factions...but they are essentially all on the same track. I have studied both Shobayashi and Goju as well as others over the past 15 years but will always stay true to Motobu ha Shito Ryu as it is a perfect combination of Naha te and Shuri te and still retains much of its Okinawan principles though it has developed on mainland.

Shogo Kuniba's father DID study with Motobu Choki...Motobu Chosei Sensei TOLD me this himself (last week!). In fact, he told a story of how his father, Choki, had dojo in Tokyo and Osaka...but he stayed mostly in Tokyo. If anyone was moving out of Tokyo to Osaka, Kuniba's Seishinkan was the ONLY dojo in Osaka he would recommend. (I hosted Motobu Chosei this past week and our small group had the honor of training with him exclusively).

My only advise is to just keep training, never be complacent with the history "someone else" gives you. Research the truth and find out the truth for yourself. It is not hard...you just have to WANT to do it. To all of the Motobu ha/ Kuniba ha practitioners out there... keep training and focus on the art as well as the history and philosophy that go with it. A lot of people went through a lot of hardship to bring the arts we love to us... honor them by giving the world a positive impression of the art...the art I love is a topic on these forums (in a negative way) far too often and it is getting old. Less chat, more mat... see you all in the dojo...

Any questions just ask...I might be able to answer...

Rob Rivers
Motobuha Shito Ryu Seishinkai
Meishi ha Mugai Ryu Suimokai

 

[Gene Williams]

Thanks Rob. That adds good info to a real confusing scene. Hope to see you soon. Gene

 

[Joseph Ruiz]

I kept my mouth shut a long tine, but no more. I just came across a letter sent in to Martial Talk dated June of 2005 by Gene Williams. He was a member of NKJU at one time but never went to any of the camps so he did not know what went on in the NKJU. True the NKJU had many styles of martial arts but the main style was motobu ha shito ryu. In 1974 when Baillargeon broke away from Soke Kuniba for reason I will not go into, he formed the NKJU, open to all styles. I was asked to be the ***'t Director of the NKJU. I was responsible for the teaching of Kobudo, Kempo and to maintaining the Empty Hand kata's. So you see it was open to all styles from the begining and it was not for money as Mr. Williams stated. As far as me leaving Soke Kuniba and Seishin Kai, the reason is my business and no one else. As far as me being invited back, I was invited back many times. I consider Soke Kuniba my last true master. Now about Koto-Su Ha Shito Ryu Karate Do, I founder this system after Kuniba died to give my teachers, Kuniba, Imuzukawa, Aihara the credit for what I have learned from them and not Chuzo Kotaka, as Mr. Williams stated. He also stated that I temper with the traditional kata's which is a bald face lie. I reserched many of the kata's and found its Chinese roots and this is what I teach. The backbone of any organization is it's students willingness to learn and to grow in the martial arts, and have an open mind, which Mr. Williams don't have. He also thinks that I don't train anymore, I got news for him at 63 years old I am very active and still on the floor. Now about the World Head of Family Sokeship Council. I was inducted into the WHFSC Hall Fame with the recommendation of Soke Edward Badiang of Hawaii. The WHFSC dose not govern the martial arts. This is an organization where the martial arts elite such as Seiyu Oyata, Kim Soo, Gary Alexander, George Anderson, Sid Campball, Masaaki Hatsumi and many, many more. And last but not least Soke Frank Sanchez who is the founder of the WFFSC which I have great respect for. I am prond to be a member of this great organization. We come together from all styles and different parts of the world once a year to celebrate the martial arts, and recognize each others accomplishment to the martial arts. If anybody wants recognition for his deeds in life, I'm sure you do Mr. Williams. As far as why you left, I know why and so do you. I've earned my recognition, in fact when Soke Kunio Tatsuno took over Seishin Kai after Kuniba death he recognized my organization, my rank and my years in the martial arts. Need I say more...Anybody who wants to know the truth and get it from the horses mouth, Me, here is my address and phone number. Mr. Williams if you have not figured it out by now, you have awakened a sleeping gaint.
Soke Joseph R. Ruiz,Hanshi...407 Clearwater Rd. Belvedere,SC 29841
Phone (803) 279-7122 Cell (803) 341-0328 E-mail [email protected]

 

[Cirdan]

E-mail [email protected]

Nice email adress. Do you have S-O-K-E tattooed on your knuckles as well?

 

[cstanley]

Looks like to me, after reading all that, that the guy was paying Mr. Ruiz some pretty high compliments about his karate. What is this need people have to be a "soke?" It doesn't even make sense outside Japan and the traditional ryu. Any Westerner using that term doesn't understand it.

 

[Mrluckyman]

Hello,
I am Ricky Adams. Been practicing a short while (over 36 years) in the same style, practicing the same kata, and not changing a single one.
I have studied under the following: Soke Shogo Kuniba, Soke Teruo Hayashi, Soke Kenzo Mabuni, Soke Joe Ruiz, Soke R.P. Baillargeon, Shihan Thomas Bentley, Shihan Kiyoshi Yamazaki, Sensei Morio Higaonna.

Afraid you have a few facts incorrect. I was there, actually there physically, at Baillargeon's home at the first organizational meeting of NKJU, when Kuniba called and ask Baillargeon to stay in SKKU.. it was, after all, Baillargeon who founded SKKU in the U.S. I worked out with both Baillargeon and Soke Ruiz for many years.... learned over 100 kata, bunkai oyo, and henka waza from those Gentlemen.... It was Kuniba who wanted to raise omenjo fees/membership fees in the U.S. and Baillargeon refused and was dismissed....he wasn't trying to start his own style, he was forced into it..since Baillargeon already had the National Jiu Jitsu Union, he just added the word Karate and came up with National Karate Jiu Jitsu Union NKJU.... (Baillargeon's wife (Kenai) made the first patch by hand embroidering Karate on a Jiu Jitsu patch in Kanji... Soke Ruiz has that patch to this day)..... Kuniba realized his mistake and tried to re-unite the SKKU.... Years later they did make amends (that must be when you were training, years later.) and Kuniba agreed to teach seminars, make promotions, etc.... BUT, It was Kuniba's idea!.... I watched Soke Ruiz test in front of Kuniba in 1974 for his Yondan in SKKU. I personally heard Kuniba, Soke tell a few students that if Ruiz were in Japan, he would be made Hachidan right then (that was 1974) Keezletown, VA SKKU Summer Camp (I was "1974 SKKU Outstanding Student of the Year") Now as far as Soke Ruiz, you are correct Soke Ruiz was the draw for NKJU, but they had another important person Dai Sempai Thomas L. Bentley.... he was my immediate sensei....He was responsible for MANY dojo joining..... he would take myself and Ben Parker to other dojo and we would perform for the sensei various high ranking kata and Sensei would close the deal..... It WASN'T for money.... Baillargeon was very well off and didn't NEED the money.... I witnessed him turning down many Fly-By-Night instructors....They would teach seminars for ANYONE who wanted to learn....Maybe that's why you thought it was a money thing?

Soke Ruiz has been practicing Karate longer than you and I have been alive (unless you are 60)....I trained with Shihan Kiyoshi Yamazaki, arguably one of the most authentic martial artist in the world.... I know alot of kata but had never had anyone else of high rank see them to verify their authenticity.... I paid Shihan Yamazaki a very large sum of money to simply sit and watch me perform over 100 kata (yes, it took hours) he intently watched every move and took notes on the names of some of the kata which in his words, "He had heard of, but had never seen!" Yamazaki Shihan had NOTHING negative to say even going so far as to suggest the inclusion of some in his syllabus. Soke Ruiz is responsible for 90% of my kata knowledge and has enabled my winning the Japan Karate-Do Ryobu Kai International Kata and Kobudo Championship 5 Times....I would say Soke's Karate is THE BEST I have ever seen and he is the MOST KNOWLEDGABLE instructor in the Martial Arts alive today.

Now about Albert Church..... Never met the man, however Soke Baillargeon and I had MANY conversations about him and Rodney Sargonoski (probably mispelled) Soke "B" as I called him was always straight forward and called a "spade a spade" pardon the pun....He told me Church was an Orange Belt with him and no higher. And that promotion certificate and authorization to begin his own style from Kuniba doesn't say that in Kanji.... It says, Shogo Kuniba doesn't care or doesn't mind if Albert Church begins his own style.... NOT CARING and authorization are two different things.....A good salesman can sell and ice box to an eskimo and I simply surmized that Church and Sarkonoski were just that salesman who sold a substandard product to the consumer..... BUYER BEWARE!

As for the reasons Soek Ruiz left NKJU.... why not ask him, he is still living and I am sure would tell you!....

 

[Mrluckyman]

"Any westerner who uses the term Soke doesn't know what it means."

As told by SOKE SHOGO KUNIBA personally.... while I was training with him! Soke is not translatable in english as westerners are not thought to have the capacity to understand the term... however, losely translated Soke means "Family Head/Head of the Family" as such, only those practicioners who considered their Style Founder the head of their "FAMILY" would refer to them as such. Soke R.P. Baillargeon was just that the Head of the NKJU Family of Martial Artist. I was one of them and we truly felt that way about Soke "B".... the fact that we used a Japanese term as a title only shows how much we westerners imersed ourselves into our training, desiring to be as much like the Japanese as possible. Immitation is the highest form of flattery.

Soke Ruiz on the other hand should also be called a Martial Arts Meijin or person who has transformed from the natural fighter into "one" who can actually create fighting techniques which will kill. If you have ever been on the receiving end of his technique you will agree.... I have a personal demonstration of Soke Ruiz performing on 8mm film..... he is moving so fast even on stop frame he is still a blur.

In fact he is a tattoo artist also but S-O-K-E- is NOT tattooed on his fist. He should get it made into a ring and imprint in on your forehead for being disrespectful of someone you obviously don't know!

 

[Sukerkin]

Might I ask to whom the above two posts were directed?

If at mister cstanley then I'm afraid you were wasting your breath - note the 'Account Closed' notification in the users header.

Also, you're a tad late. Twenty months isn't a record for a Zombie thread but still an impressive resurrection .

 

[Mrluckyman]

The above two post were for the general knowledge of those who read these posts..... once a statement is made, be it the truth or a lie.... is there a time limit on the statement....I just joined MT... should I disregard those post, that others have read in the past and not point out the veracity of those statements made? .... Is there a time limit on the truth? mister cstanley had people read his post, regardless if he is a member or not.....if you read the earlier post and formulated an opinion on the contents of their posts then it is directed to you also. Not you must choose, as if you care, which point of view you care to regard and disregard.

 

[Kacey]

The above two post were for the general knowledge of those who read these posts..... once a statement is made, be it the truth or a lie.... is there a time limit on the statement....I just joined MT... should I disregard those post, that others have read in the past and not point out the veracity of those statements made? .... Is there a time limit on the truth? mister cstanley had people read his post, regardless if he is a member or not.....if you read the earlier post and formulated an opinion on the contents of their posts then it is directed to you also. Not you must choose, as if you care, which point of view you care to regard and disregard.

Can you answer? Certainly. However, most people ignore posts of the age of the one you responded to. Sukerkin's point, I think, was that disputing cstanley's posts, at this point, is not going to have any effect on cstanley, as he is no longer here.

 

[kamishinkan]

I am afraid to do this BUT.....here it goes. I have been speaking to the person lately who was the most against the claims of Church and Kamishin Ryu earlier in this thread and he is now in support of all of the claims made by Church. The proof is in the documents.

According to Mrluckyman, the document in question is a 3.5 ft long scroll. It has been translated anddetermined to be in Kuniba's script and DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE that Soke Kuniba "doesnt care if he (Church) starts his own style". This is just plan ignorant and continues the nonsense that has been disproven over and over again. The scroll clearly is a "recognition" type scroll of Church's Kamishin Ryu and names him as a Seishinkan rep. He also was given a 3 ft wooden Kanban that names Church as the kanagawa prefecture Kaicho of the Seishinkan (not Seishinkai - there was a difference in the 60's). Again, everyone wants to believe what they want but those who argue against Church's claims do not have the documents to match the documents given to Church.

And the statement that Church was only an "orange belt"....Oh boy. I am right now staring at an HMAF bulletin dated April 27th, 1967 in which Church's picture was featured on the front cover with Ryuho Okuyama, Shogo Kuniba and Jon Root. In the bulletin Church was recognized as SANDAN (Third Degree Black Belt) in the HMAF. This was BEFORE he went to Japan. Church's school, the Kyokai Karate and Jujutsu Dojo, was also featured in the Hakko Ryu periodical in Japan. In this same bulletin, Church was mentioned more than once as the South Carolina rep for the HMAF and was made the Japan Correspondant to the HMAF while in Japan. There was clearly a falling out over politics between Church and Baillargeon but facts (documents) speak louder than one persons tales.

As usual, Mr. Church gets looped in with Rod Sachronowski, it has been proven that in Mr. Sachronowski's own words he and Church were not together other than teaching at Church's dojo a couple of times and learning some basic Jujutsu with one of Church's black belts.

I find it funny that people from Church's side could write in these forums forever and discredit the name of those who follow these men, but we don't. But over and over the same old (worn out) arguments over Church are brought up. Look at the documents......Interestingly, the old argument was Kuniba never wrote it, then it was Church forged it, then it was well, Kuniba did not know what he was signing now it is Kuniba wrote a 3.5 ft long scroll just to say he did not care what Church did..... Come on.

By the way, last year I met with Kozo Kuniba, no problem, I am friends with Butch Velez, no problem, I am meeting with Bill Price next month, again no problem. It seems if there was a problem, I would know.

As far as the Soke title, It is supposed to be a traditional title for arts that were founded in the East and passed by lineage succession (ask Don Angier). As far as new arts that are formed in the West and use the title, well, probably not the best term to use. Terms like Kaicho, Kaiso and Soshi would all be better terms that mean similar things and are not looked down upon (by some).

 

[Tez3]

Is this a record? A thread started five years ago still gets posts on and off in the intervening years?

Btw I have formed no opinions whatsoever on this subject roflmao!

 

[rompida]

Like he said, there isn't a time limit on finding and stating the truth and clearing up lies and misconceptions. I say kudos to you.

I learned from one of Church's students over 15 years ago. I came across this thread several years ago and read it in horror, and can say that the claims against Master Church made me question everything I had learned.

I am very glad to hear this, and I know a lot of people that will be eager to hear more from you regarding this matter. Perhaps you can post a copy of the bulletin you referred to?

Thanks for your humility and honesty.

best regards to you,

Brian