anyone heard of this style?

K

Katsu Jin Ken

Guest
Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu karate
I heard that Motobu is alot like kempo but im not sure. If anyone has expierence in these arts or has knowledge of them a little help would be apprechiated.

Got them from this website, http://www.shihokarano.com/styles.htm
im training in that starting next sunday so i would just like some expierenced info and opinons not just what the instructors and websites say.
 
shito ryu is one of the major styles of karate in the world. Motobu-ha is the largest of the many shito ryu sub-styles. It is karate as straight as it can be.

Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha, came from a long line of martialartists, and his family had a unique familystyle of its own (The Motobu was minor nobility, but Choki was the youngest son). Choki himself did NOT teach that to others , he teached the art taught to him from Kosaku Matsumora from tomari, and it is doubtful Choki even was seriously taught his familys style (being a "black sheep", streetfighter and general troublemaker before Matsumora accepted him as student).

Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu.

Motobu ryu is known as a style of okinawan kempo rather than a okinawan karate style, although exactly where the lines between okinawan kempo and okinawan karate is drawn is anybodys guess. Its not close to any american style of kempo/kenpo.

But motobu-ha shitoryu is mainstream karate.
 
Martin h said:
shito ryu is one of the major styles of karate in the world. Motobu-ha is the largest of the many shito ryu sub-styles. It is karate as straight as it can be.

Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha, came from a long line of martialartists, and his family had a unique familystyle of its own (The Motobu was minor nobility, but Choki was the youngest son). Choki himself did NOT teach that to others , he teached the art taught to him from Kosaku Matsumora from tomari, and it is doubtful Choki even was seriously taught his familys style (being a "black sheep", streetfighter and general troublemaker before Matsumora accepted him as student).

Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu.

Motobu ryu is known as a style of okinawan kempo rather than a okinawan karate style, although exactly where the lines between okinawan kempo and okinawan karate is drawn is anybodys guess. Its not close to any american style of kempo/kenpo.

But motobu-ha shitoryu is mainstream karate.
Click to expand...
I was not aware of this style. Thanks alot for posting this.

Tarek ;)
 
Hmm sorry (that should teach me to write something without doublechecking), Motobu (1871-1944) didnt actualy create the shitoryu substyle motobu ha. Shitoryu was created by Kenwa Mabuni (1887-1954), and the substyle known as motobu ha apparently got its name from being influenced by the style of choki Motobu, I dont know who formaly founded it.
Apparently the style Motobu taught was closer to Shorin ryu in what is today the Matsubayashi ryu substyle of shorinryu.

Motobu taught others what his teacher Matsumora taught him, but he also visited many other masters to deepen his knowledge of karate after he himself had become famous (and gotten away from is bad rep from younger days), with a few personal twists like every master. The old masters didnt realy care about style boundaries, and they influenced each others quite a lot.
 
Real Motobu Ryu, Gotent-te in Japanese, or Uchinadi Motobu Ryu, is a royal court style closely related to the tuite of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu. It looks like fast Aikijujutsu and many weapons are also taught. It is true old school karate style, unlike Shito Ryu which is basically punch, kick, numerous kata, sparring karate. Two completely different animals. Real Motobu Ryu is very rare, like any good karate, and you won't find it in most places. You have to search.

The Motobu-Ha Shito dudes are Shito Ryu-ka who supposedly use Choki's fighting philosophies in their Mabuni Kenwa influenced Shito Ryu, a modern form of karate greatly influenced by Japanese methodology. Even their Naihanchi is different than Choki's. It is very similar to Shotokan. It is very unlike Matsubayashi, so I don't know where the supposed Choki Motobu influence comes from. I guess it's because Kenwa Shinshii did learn some things from Choki.

They are required to learn up to 50 kata! Very unorthodox for Okinawan karate. It is Japanese karate. You might as well do Wado Ryu, because at least Ohtsuka understood the importance of circular motion, lateral movement and grappling.
 
when in japan Choki Motobu lived with the Kuniba family,in okinawa it was pronounced Kokuba, the elder Kuniba was taught by Motobu.Later on after Motobu had left for possibly Hawaii ,Kuniba taught this style to his son Shogo Kuniba,at some point Kenwa Mabuni came to stay with them for a while also and that is how Shogo Kuniba combined Motobu ryu and Shito ryu.You could probably get more accurate information on this subject from his yudansha sensei Louis Estes I am not sure of the e-mail address but a web search should get it for you.I studied this style for quite some time under the direction of Shogo Kunibas japan instructor Toshio Kaneta who does not have web access.I believe this style is more influenced by Mabuni than Motobu because Kuniba learned Shito ryu directly from Mabuni where his Motobu ryu knowledge was passed to him by his father.And being raised in a Japanese culture it all seems to have a more pronounced Shotokan or Japanese feel to it.Thomas Hodges
 
Martin h said:
shito ryu is one of the major styles of karate in the world. Motobu-ha is the largest of the many shito ryu sub-styles. It is karate as straight as it can be.

Choki Motobu, the founder of motobu-ha, came from a long line of martialartists, and his family had a unique familystyle of its own (The Motobu was minor nobility, but Choki was the youngest son). Choki himself did NOT teach that to others , he teached the art taught to him from Kosaku Matsumora from tomari, and it is doubtful Choki even was seriously taught his familys style (being a "black sheep", streetfighter and general troublemaker before Matsumora accepted him as student). Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu.

Motobu ryu is known as a style of okinawan kempo rather than a okinawan karate style, although exactly where the lines between okinawan kempo and okinawan karate is drawn is anybodys guess. Its not close to any american style of kempo/kenpo.

But motobu-ha shitoryu is mainstream karate.
Click to expand...
Several points that need to be cleared up:

1) Choki Motobu did not found the style called Motobu-ha Shito Ryu. Kuniba Kosei started to call it Motobu-ha Shito Ryu. Shito Ryu was founded by Kenwa Mabuni and since Motobu was never a student of Mabuni I fail to see why Motobu would call what he does Motobu-ha Shito Ryu. Please refer to this link for Motobu-ha history: http://www.martialsource.com/shitohistory.htm

2) The Motobu Family were very high ranking nobility in Okinawa.

3) Choki was the son of his father’s mistress and not his wife, and for that reason was not given "formal" instruction in his families style. It was later in life that he became some what of a trouble maker.

4) The Motobu Family style was not passed on to a family member but rather it was passed on to Uehara Seikichi who just recently passed away at the age of 100.

5) Motobu Choki’s son now is one of the main instuctors in Choki’s style of Karate
 
Katsu Jin Ken said:
Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu karate
I heard that Motobu is alot like kempo but im not sure. If anyone has expierence in these arts or has knowledge of them a little help would be apprechiated.

Got them from this website, http://www.shihokarano.com/styles.htm
im training in that starting next sunday so i would just like some expierenced info and opinons not just what the instructors and websites say.
Click to expand...
In regards to that website.....there is a man named Church on there......what a doozy he is. He is one of the old school BS artists. If E-Budo ever comes back on line do a word search for him. You will get loads of dirt on him and how he forged some scrolls to get rank in Motobu-ha.


Here is another Motobu-ha guy that is a joke:

http://www.wholearmor.net/MAIN/DOCS/MISC/FRSOKEBIO.HTM

Only a liar and an idiot western martial artist would call himself or use the title of "Soke".

From the site:
Besides his martial arts training, Soke Riedner also pursued an academic career, earning his B.A. and M.A. from Bob Jones University, Another M.A. from Columbia Bible College, and finally his M.Div., PH.D. and L.H.D. from Great Plains Baptist College.

This is interesting:

Bob Jones Bends
By Guide Kimberly Hohman

Dateline: 03/06/00

In an interview with Larry King on Friday, Bob Jones III, the president of the now-famous University which was at the center of a George W. Bush controversy, made an announcement that surprised many: Bob Jones University's policy against interracial dating, which they believe to be against the teachings of God, has been dropped. In his words, "We don't have to have that rule. In fact, as of today, we have dropped the rule."




So sudden and unexpected was the announcement that even current students of the university were said to have gasped at an assembly in the school's auditorium where they watched the interview on CNN's "Larry King Live."

This interview came after a March 3 announcement on the school's website responding to recent media attention. In the letter, Bob Jones, III addressed the issue of religious freedom as well as asking the nation to decide if their institution is "racially bigoted" or not. Jones, III stated in the letter, "We work hard at promoting racial harmony in our local community." I guess that's as long as that racial harmony doesn't get too harmonious, if you know what I mean.

A Multiracial Activist's History with BJU

Bob Jones' students weren't the only ones who were surprised at the announcement. Shortly after King's interview with Jones ended, James A. Landrith, Jr. of The Multiracial Activist posted the following message to our very own Race Relations forum.

Landrith has his own history with Bob Jones University. In addition to maintaining an extensive collection of links to articles and information about Bob Jones University, Mr. Landrith, who is interracially married himself, sent an application to BJU in 1998. The University's response to his application was not unlike their standard defense of their policy. In a letter to Landrith, Jonathan Pait, the university's community relations coordinator reiterated their policy all the while maintaining that, "Although there is no verse in the Bible that dogmatically says that races should not intermarry, the whole plan of God as He has dealt with the races down through the ages indicates that interracial marriage is not best for man. We do believe we see principles, not specific verses, to give us direction for the avoidance of it."


I wonder if they let woman vote at this university yet?:boing2:
 
Motobu Ryu Karate should not be confused with the Uchinadi Motobu Ryu of Okinawa.

Choki Motobu likely learned some of the families art, but studied karate outside of the family, as has already been discussed.

One of Motobu's students was Kokuba Kosei, who later moved to Osaka. Kokuba Sensei had a dojo at his house and began teachin Motobu Ryu Karate. Motobu lived in the Kokuba house and taught there. Kokuba Sensei inherited the style when Motobu passed away. Mabuni, the Shito Ryu founder also lived at the Kokuba house and taught there.

Kokuba Sensei had a son, Kokuba Kosho. The japanse pronunciation of his name is Kuniba Shogo. I believe it was Kuniba Sensei who coined the term Motobuha Shito Ryu.

The Kuniba family now continues his legacy with the Kuniba Kai (www.kunibakai.com), you can also find historical information at www.butchvelezagk.com and the International Seishinkai Karate Union web site (url not known right now).

The style was introduced to the U.S. by Richard P. Baillargeon in 1964. This was actually the first introduction of any Shito Ryu to the U.S. Mr. Baillargeon started the NKJU in 1974 after resigning as U.S. Director of Seishinkai www.nkjui.org
 
Martin h said:
Choki´s had a brother however, Choyu, who WAS taught the family unarmed fightingstyle, and who passed it on to non-family members, that style is today known as Motobu ryu.

1) Motobu ryu is known as a style of okinawan kempo rather than a okinawan karate style, although exactly where the lines between okinawan kempo and okinawan karate is drawn is anybodys guess. Its not close to any american style of kempo/kenpo.

But motobu-ha shitoryu is mainstream karate.
Click to expand...
1) Actually it is not known as either. Motobu Ryu is known as a form of Okinawa Te.

Read this thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21276 to find out more about Motobu Choki
 
Just a comment on a previous post on this thread concerning Albert Church..... The so called "forged scrolls" have been read by Guy Power, sensei, and it was in Kuniba's hand, also, unless Church sensei was soooo good at forgery, he also has rank and title certification from Hayashi sensei as well, oh, and also rank certificates from Okuyama sensei in Hakko Ryu as well, oh, and a Kanban naming Church sensei as Kanagawa prefectual leader of the Seishinkai with Kuniba sensei standing next to it!
you can view these images at
www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/documents.html
and
www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/churchcertificates.html
if this does not work go to www.kamishinryu.net and follow the links
These copies are old and rough but you can make them out if you know what you are looking for. I am sure this will not end the accusations though!
 
It is true that Church did have SOME credentials from Kuniba, Hayashi and Okuyama. The problem comes with the claims surrounding the scroll, and the "Sokeship".

1) Kuniba said he naver issued this scroll
2) no one has an original copy of the scroll for verification.
3) Only part of the scroll was translated. Much of it can not be translated. Had this been written by a native Japanese, there would not be so many kanji that can not be translated. It does not appear to have been written by someone was educated in the Japanse language and use of kanji. If one wants to call the scroll a "forgery", it would have to called a "bad forgery", not a "good forgery".

There is a handbook written by Church and his claim was that Kuniba also collaborated on this book. But the same translational problems exist in the book. Incorrect kanji, non existent kanji, etc.

Church did meet and train with Kuniba in Japan. It appears that he thought he would be running the Seishinkai when he got back to the U.S. Then when he got back and learned there already was a U.S. Rep and several others in line ahead of him, then this scroll "appeared" and "Kamishin Ryu" was born. Church never had contact with Kuniba ever again after leaving his dojo in Osaka. Kind of odd for his representative to not even send him a letter when he got home.

The kanban was issued essentially as recognition as a member dojo. The kanban says nothing about Kamishin Ryu.

Again, Church did get a lot of good training from Kuniba, Hayashi and Okuyama. So if what his followers are teaching today are true to the traditions of these 3 men, then there is good training to get with them.
But the truth remains, Kuniba did not issue this "Sokeship" scroll.
 
On elast item:

So far, this "scroll" has only been "verified" by people with ties to Albert Church. I don't know anyone of them that ever even met Kuniba Soke.
They all have an interest in either promoting the art or trying to salvage Church's reputation.

There has never been a translation done by an independent 3rd party.
Also, any reputable person hired to verify a document, would never use a copy of a copy of a copy. They would insist on an original document. Being that there appears to be no original document, actual authentication by a reputable 3rd party is not possible.
 
As someone who practices a descendant style of Church, I definitely have an interest in this thread now. I'm not taking a position on the issue, as I don't have enough info to do so. However, there are a couple of points that I would like to make about Mr. Church.

* my understanding is that GM Church's style was recognized as a new style, mainly because it was NOT Japanese in origin, but was further developed in Japan. His style was recognized of being Chinese-Korean-Japanese origin.

*the original style that kamishin ryu was based on was from his training with Master Kin Chi KOOH, which was a shaolin style of kung fu, with added influences from tae kyon. Then... it was mixed with Soke Kuniba's and Ryuno Okuyama's Japanese styles.

*if someone has the motivation to do so, I imagine that Church's widow could supply you with documentation. I believe she still lives in Charleston, SC if anybody wants to look her up.

Can I verify any of the above? Nope, other than anecdotes from my instructor and GM Church's students that I have trained under. I have often wondered about the lineage of our style though, so I welcome any CONSTRUCTIVE debate and/or discussion.

Lastly, RRouuselot, before calling out anyone and calling them a BS artist, how about doing some research yourself first? and I wouldn't call ebudo research, anymore than I would call martialtalk a reliable source for research. Too much opinion and bias.

just my $.02
 
Well, as websites go, E-Budo is pretty definitive, I'd have to say. Lots of great knowledge there. But yes, more could be done!
 
Let me try to shed some light on Motobu-ha Shito-ryu. It was founded by Kosei Kuniba (Kokuba), who had studied with Motobu Choki and Mabuni. His son, Shogo Kuniba became Soke upon Kosei's death. Shogo Kuniba headed the Seishin Kai, of which Motobu-ha Shito-ryu was the official ryu. Motobu ha Shito-ryu has nothing to do with Motobu Ryu, which is the ryu of Motobu's son, Chosei. Motobu ha Shito-ryu is straight karate with some jujutsu integrated into the bunkai. In the late sixties and early seventies, Richard Baillargeon and Joseph R. Ruiz were in Seishin Kai under Shogo Kuniba. Baillargeon wanted to start his own organization and run it in this country instead of having it run from Japan. With Kuniba's blessing, Baillargeon started NKJU with Kuniba as advisor. I came to SSK/NKJU from Shorin ryu under Kota Higioshi (who went back to Japan) about the time Baillargeon was forming NKJU. The style taught was Motobu-ha Shito-ryu with Kuniba doing clinics and seminars and summer camps. The kata of NKJU were the Shito ryu kata as done and taught by Kuniba. After a time, Baillargeon wanted to make some money, so NKJU opened up to anybody. It was the biggest mess you ever saw with TKD, Shotokan, Kung Fu, Hunky Dunky ryu, and everything else that brought money. Joseph Ruiz, the number 2 man in NKJU, maintained Motobu-ha Shito ryu as his style, but was tolerant of all the other groups. That is how so many kata came to be on the syllabus, Baillargeon wanted every ryu represented, which produced the odd phenomena of Shito and Shorin stylists learning hyungs like Chung Mu and Chung Jang! Predictably, Ruiz and Baillargeon had a parting of the ways, mostly over money but also over requirements. Ruiz founded IKKU, was made Hanshi by Kuniba, and continued teaching Motobu ha. Richard Kelley, myself, and several others went with Hanshi Ruiz. Until Kuniba died, Ruiz taught Motobu-ha kata and relied upon Kuniba for advice and counsel. When Kuniba died, everyone went crazy. Ruiz formed his own ryu, called Kotosu ha Shito ryu, brought in a bunch of Chuzo Kotaka's kata, and began to tamper with the traditional kata. Kelley left, formed Kitakaze Bujutsu kai, and joined Richard Price, Kuniba's designated succesor (Kuniba put this in his will and made notarized public statements to that effect). I left and just kept teaching Motobu ha Shito-ryu as I was taught it in the seventies and continue to do the kata as Kuniba taught them then. There are not many of us teaching what we call Motobu ha, but if we didn't go with one of the many Shito ryu groups that are still squabbling over lineage, that is the only thing to call it. I will probably join Price's group, because I believe that is the closest to what Kuniba actually taught, but I have been pretty turned off by all the factionalism and squabbling. Price does not whine or squabble, and does not feel that he needs to prove anything to anyone. I like that. So, there you have it. Why did Kuniba designate Price as Soke instead of his son, Kozo? I don't know. Maybe someone else does. I have trouble believing anything anyone tells me. Gene Williams
 
Gene,

Thanks for your input and for trying to keep up the legacy of Shogo Kuniba's Karate.

For the record, when reading these boards, I often take Gene's word over my own when we have varied versions of these earlier histories. He is correct in saying that it is hard to beleive a lot of what people say. There has always been a lot of politics and agendas here. I also think his assessment is largely accurate.

As for as why Mr. Price was named Soke instead of the son of Soke Kuniba, here is what I heard:

Mr. Price was named Soke and given authority in the U.S. But Soke Kuniba's older son (Kosuke?) was placed in charge in Japan. Kozo now runs the Kuniba Kai with schools in the Japan, the U.S. and other countries. I don't know why the Kuniba family is no longer affiliated with the Seishinkai.

I said about all I can re: Albert Church.

Gene, would you say that after the Baillargeon/Ruiz split, that Ruiz stayed truer to the teachings of Soke Kuniba? All that I know about him now is that he is with the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, which doesn't make much sense to me if he truly does have such credentials from Kuniba. I was told, however, that Mr. Ruiz sent a student up to see Soke Kuniba with a blank check and returned with the 9th Dan / Hanshi certificates. But then again, like you said, you never know what to believe.
 
Hey, Jim. Good to hear from you. When Baillargeon and Ruiz split, Ruiz threw out all the NKJU kata that were not Motobu ha Shito-ryu and taught only the kata Kunuiba taught. I think he kept one or two Kotaka kata that he liked as supplementary kata, but not as requirements. Ruiz continued to travel and to train with Kuniba right up until Kuniba died. About the Hanshi promotion...Ron Queen, Richard Kelley, and Ron Downton went up to Virginia to see Soke Kuniba. They, and all the rest of us without Ruiz' knowledge, wanted him promoted to 8th dan. We said nothing about Hanshi, and the guys that went up did not say anything about it, either. We planned a surprise ceremony in which we were going to give it to him. They took an IKKU diploma (Ruiz' organization). Kuniba promoted Ruiz to hachi dan, signed it and stamped it with his stamp, but not Seishin Kai stamps. He also gave him the Hanshi title on IKKU paper and signed it and stamped it with only his signature stamp. I don't know what kind of money changed hands, if any. That is how I understand what went on from Kelley, Queen, and Downton. I have no reason to believe they are lying. Kuniba and Ruiz friendship and training relationship goes way back. Kuniba liked Ruiz, thought him to be a premier kata practitioner and a fine, if maverick, martial artist. They cut up a lot together, bummed cigarrettes from each other and drank together. Kuniba did draw some lines, however. Once Ruiz left SSK, Kuniba never invited him back. We all wondered about that, especially after the Ruiz Baillargeon split. They remained friends until Kuniba's death. Now, about Ruiz in later days. Leaving his dojo was the hardest thing I ever did. I had trained under two fine high ranking Japanese sensei before I met him, but I found him to be a better sensei than either of them. When he was training and teaching, there were few who knew and performed kata as well as him...Kuniba, Hayashi, Demura, Higaonna...those are the people you would have to seek out to better his kata. His reverse punch was simply death in a gi. Ruiz was the one that attracted people to NKJU and was responsible for its syllabus. But, he needed recognition...he wanted people around him praising him, and he had always wanted to found his own ryu. Once Kuniba died, it was like someone threw a switch. When he began to change kata to suit him, brought back the "modern" Kotaka kata, and began calling his style Kotosu ha, I could not stay. I was his senior dojo student and had been there 15 years, so it saddened me and pissed him off. He will not speak to me to this day. All that World Head of Family Soke crap...that is just his need for recognition. It is an embarrassment to me because objectively he doesn't need that. He's forgotten more Shito-ryu than most of us know. But, it is a personality thing, his weakness. We all have our own. All that being said, Joe Ruiz is as good a martial artist as you would ever want to meet and better than most. As far as Church goes...I never heard his name mentioned once by Kuniba, Ruiz, Baillargeon, or Bill Price. I was there for 15 years. Gene
 
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