Motobuha Shito Ryu (info wanted)

[kenpojujitsu]

"If all of the pictures and copies of the Menjo/Kanban etc. does not prove it then nothing will."

Show me the real things, translated by a reptuable and neutral party - including the scroll, and I'll believe it.

In the mean time, we have the Kuniba word of Kuniba himself, his family, and his students who knew Church, all saying this never happened.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

As far as the Soke issue...Kuniba sensei did not "make him anything". He was being sponsored and covered by an established system because of his inherited art. He was already a head family. He received a 30 foot long scroll (that has been viewed by several people). It was because of this that he received the secondary scroll from Kuniba (that is on the previous link page with all of his Godan and Shihan licenses from Kuniba sensei and Hayashi sensei).

Pardon me for butting in.. but is this 30 foot scroll the one that Mr. Guy Powers had seen back then when he was a junior student of Mr. Church? If not mistaken, Mr. Powers had translated some of Mr. Church's menkyos as well in one of those hot E-Budo debates...

Perhaps we could contact Mr. Powers and see what else he had discovered these past few years?

 

[kamishinkan]

That is correct. The 30 foot scroll was given to Mr. Church and Power sensei (among others) saw it and remembers it well. Unfortunatly at that time he could not read Kanji. He does remember that the Scroll was bridged with thumb prints, which is pretty traditional for those who did not have bridge stamps. The "Kuniba Scroll" was translated by Power Sensei and all of Church sensei's menjo as well. As far as I am concerned the copies of these are on-line for anyone to translate as they see fit. To match the kanji on the scroll to any of Kuniba sensei's certificates is not hard to do either. You don't have to be a writing professional to see the similarities. I love the people who claim Church sensei forged it.....They must have never seen Church sensei's Kanji!!!!! Better than mine but a far cry from what is on that scroll!
Most of this is just re-hashing most of the e-budo topic anyway.
From what I understand Power Sensei, although openly stating he saw the 30 foot scroll, is staying pretty neutral until he gets the chance to see it again and read it. I am not sure that will ever happen since Mr. Church's wife kept the scroll after Church sensei's death and has kept it locked away.
Anyone who wishes to challenge Power sensei's reading of the Scroll/Menjo, have it/them read for yourself.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

The scroll is not what was translated. This is just another fabrication.
There is a very small portion of this alleged 30 foot scroll that was translated based on a photo copy. The photo copy also came from another copy, because the original 30 foot scroll was "lost".

In addition, this portion of a copy of the alleged scroll can not be fully translated due to poor quality. It all sounds just too convenient.

In addition, a student who would have a vested interest in making sure that Church is not seen as the liar that he was, is hardly a credible source to verify it.

If you were to take this "documentation" to a professional for examination, translation and verification of the "original 30 foot scroll", I am sure he would think your were not being serious, if not just laugh at you.

Kuniba said he did not give such a scroll, his family maintains that it was not given and it can not be proven.

Let's take it another step, since you can not prove the existence of the Kuniba scroll. Show us the documentation that Church got from Kim Chi and brought to Kuniba. Or was that convenitnly "lost" too?

 

[kamishinkan]

I am not sure where this information came from.
The scroll that was translated that is on the link page a few posts earlier is not a "portion of the 30 foot scroll". The translated scroll is the scroll that came from Kuniba, hence the Seishinkai seal at the front....this is a much smaller scroll. View it for yourself at www.geocities.com/aiki_kempo/churchkuniba.html
The 30 foot scroll was never copied or any part of it. It is not lost, Mrs. Church still has it.
Also, the Kanban that Kuniba and Church sensei is standing in front of could be read with a Kanji book, read it!
This is way too much, If anyone does not believe this, that is your right. Just as it is others right to believe the obvious evidence before our eyes. I choose to believe Power sensei's reading of the scroll and menjo, if you do not, again that is your right.
Forums are amazing all you have to do is keep posting your opinions about others no matter how unsubstantiated and it must be truth.
I choose to believe documents, even if copies, not heresay.
BTW, I know many of Kuniba sensei's students, no one I know has ever said Kuniba sensei denied the Kuniba scroll. That has only been said by Kuniba sensei's son, and everyone who has jumped on that side of this political bandwagon.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Power Sensei translated part of the scroll - PART OF IT.
I don't think he staked his reputation by certifying that it came from Kuniba. No reputable translator could do that. Again, he was given a copy of a copy which could only be partially translated.

Has Power Sensei stated for a fact that the document he translated came from Kuniba?
Either way, how would someone doing a translation of a copy be willing to guarantee that it is in fact a copy of an actual document and not some that Church himself or one of his students pieced together from other documents?
This is the reason behind official seals - to avoid or atleast make it more difficult to reproduce.

I would venture to say that the copy of the document translated by Power Sensei is a fake, made by someone using other certificates, perhaps a kanji book, some white out and a copy machine. Church has done this before. Other certificates that he claimed came from Kuniba had upside down and backwards kanji.

Since Kuniba and the family say he did not issue that to Church, it is up to you to prove that he did. And that you have been unable to do.

Even if the so-called Kanaban can be translated, that still does not prove Church's claim of being made a "soke" by Kuniba, or that Kuniba recognized the Chinese/Korean Kamishin Ryuart as a Japanese art.

An old copy of a copy is not a document as you call it. To beleieve that is just being gullibible or dumb.

Church did receive some rankings from Kuniba. But not a scroll naming him a "soke". This was a lie. If you choose to continue spreading lies then that is up to you. But it puts you in the same category as Church - a fool, a liar and phony.

When you can produce the original document and prove that it actually came from Kuniba then maybe people with some sense will beleive it. Without the original document then you have nothing.

Why will the Church family not juct come out and produce the original document and prove it once and for all? If continuing the story is so important that every couple pf months somebody has to come onto one of these boards and drudge it up again, then it should be important enough to prodcue the evidence to support the claim.

Show us the documents or just go back into your little fantasy world.

 

[kamishinkan]

This is childish to say the least, Now posters are dropping to name-calling.

Power sensei has translated enough of the scroll to recognize it not to be a hoax of a "kanji book, white out and a copy machine". That is just ignorant. If it was that, it would be very easy to catch by someone able to read kanji! I have never, until now, heard of any ceritificates made by Church from Kuniba with upside down kanji, where is this so-called document? More heresay.

I am tired of this, the copies are on the page to view. Everyone has their own right to an opinion, even you, and I refuse to call you the names you called me for believing what you believe. I will not drop to that.

I am shocked that this forum allows such name calling.

I am going to end this, I am sure you will post something else, your right. I think everyone has seen enough (and heard enough) to base their own opinion.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

You have once again failed , or refused, to support how translating a small portion of a copy verifies that a document was in fact issued by a particular person.

This also is not a copy of the original document, because no one has been able to produce the original. The document that Power Sensei translated was a copy of a copy, at best. What evidence is there to prove that the copy of the document that Power Sensei translated is in fact an actual copy of a document written and sealed by Kuniba? The answer is that there is none! You therefore have no eveidence of your claims.

Produce the original document and the documents that Church supposedly took to Kuniba for verification. The lame excuse that they were "lost" is tiresome and unoriginal. These very valuable and irreplacebale documents would have been saeguarded to be passed on to the next "soke" to prove his lineage and inheritance of the art. The chinese scrolls that Church inherited from the Korean would have been hundreds of years old and passed down from generation to generation. Now were supposed to believe that they just got buried in Church's garage or his attic and no one can find them?

The one document made by Chuerch that had the upside down and backward kanji is one that Katherine Church once brought out to prove some claims. That docuemnt was proven to be a fake and immediately was added to the list of "lost documents". She has been silent ever since.

It's well beyond time for the Church groups to put up or shut up.

 

[kamishinkan]

I have never heard that any of the documents were "lost". According to Mrs. Church, she still has the documents. I have seen alot of the original menjo myself and some swords and other things when I moved Mrs. Church from the apartment they lived in to a house she lived in. This was the early 90's.

I have also heard just about every claim there is against Mr. Church and this "document" with upside down Kanji is a new one.

It has been said the documents are copies of fakes. PROVE IT. What happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty. Everyone has their opinion about the documents and there validity, but no proof. Just more opinions.

I never intended on training in the martial arts to end up being a debate artist. I will continue promoting what I believe to be truth based on the documents we do have, you don't have to approve.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

The lack of original documents and the word of Kuniba himself pretty much indicate that your copies are fakes.

Produce the original documents and have them verified by an independent thrid party. It will only cost you a frw hundred dollars to do this.
Split up among all the people trying to prove that these copies are copies of real documents, it will only cost a few dollars each.
I would think it will be well worth your time and trouble to do this. You will then have proof of what you claim.

I don't see how anyone can be so ignorant to believe that copies of documents posted on a web site constitute any kind of evidence of anything.

Also, just because you have seen the originals does not mean that Kuniba wrote.

And please tell us how seeing sword at Church's house proves that Kuniba gave him the "soke scroll". This is just dumb.

The last time any of these documents were shown in public was when it was pointed out to Katherine Church that some of the kanji were upside down and backward. She crawled back into her cave and shut up about it after that. If she, or her family, care so much about the dead liars posthumous reputation, then they will be more than happy to produce the documents and have them verified and prove everyone else wrong.

Like I said: put up or shut up!

 

[kamishinkan]

It has been said again and again, I nor any of Kuniba sensei's students I know ever said HE denied the scroll, only his son.

As far as the swords I saw, it was just a fond memory. Sorry I shared!

I have lost my desire to debate this further. If I did have the original, I would not show anyone who has so openly called the person (Mr. Church and subsequently me) liars, fakes, etc, etc.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Kozo Kuniba Soke wrote the letter to Black Belt denying that Shogo Kuniba wrote the "scroll" on his father's behalf. Shogo Kuniba Soke was still alive at the time and would of course had known it was written. Also, Kozo would most certainly have spoken to his father before making such a statement.
Shogo Kuniba has denied issuing the "soke scroll". He has not denied issuing rank certificates to Church.

Keep in mind that the last time Shogo Kuniba Soke heard from ALbert Church was the day he issued the rank certificates.
Church left Japan and never had any contact with Soke Kuniba or the Seishinkai ever again. Kuniba moved to the U.S. in 83 and was shocked to see his former students and students of students, calling themselves "soke". Church was already dead by this time, but his family was running around making claims as to the existence of this "Kuniba Scroll". It didn't exist in 1983 and doesnt' exist now.

Again, the only proof you would have of your claims would be the original documents. Why, when it is so easy to do, would you refuse to support your claims? My only guess would be because you know that there are no original documents to produce and you live in the same fantasy world that Albert Church did.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

here's another offer:

Produce the original documents.
I will take them, along with documents I and others have, written by Kuniba, to a document expert and have them examined. I will pay all expenses and post the findings here and on e-budo. I will also have the expert send his findings to you so you have them.

If your documents are in fact from Kuniba, I will pay you $10,000.

 

[kamishinkan]

I do not have any documents to produce. I have never claimed to have any of the documents. I have said, numerous times, that Mrs. Church has the documents. The only documents (copies) I have I have posted, I am trying to be as up-front with all of this as I can and I am a little tired of being blasted by this post. I thought Martial Talk was a FRIENDLY DISCUSSION, I am tired of the negative posts (and name-calling) about the art I study and me personally for studying (and believeing) it. Maybe a moderator should view this.

 

[TimoS]

You know, if you read other forums also, you would have come up with this information over on e-budo: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13010

Another option would have been contacting mr. Power directly and not debate here what he might have said...

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Ask Mrs. Church to provide the documents. Without them you have NOTHING but a lot of talk and the word of the Kuniba family to discount your claims.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

You know, if you read other forums also, you would have come up with this information over on e-budo: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13010

Another option would have been contacting mr. Power directly and not debate here what he might have said...

From the e-budo thread:

"Ted Petit had been in correspondence with the gentleman and only recently learned of the photocopies. That gentleman provided photocopies of the photocopies.

We enhanced the photocopies to allow me to read the text."

This is not a valid way to verify documents and no reputable document expert would verify documents in this manner.
Orginal documents would have to be compared to other original documents.

The original documents must be examined not only by a translator but a handwriting expert. Also, having the work done by a friend and student of Church who has a vested interest in proclaiming them as real is not a good idea. A neutral, 3rd party expert should do the work.

No credible evidence has been brought up to support the claim.

 

[TimoS]

Yes, it does say that. It also said

the penmanship is Kuniba sensei's. I base my pronouncement on other Kuniba correspondences/menjo to which I have compared this scroll.

Not that I care one way or another, it's just tiresome to read all this bickering. I think it is pretty clear that neither of you is going to change his mind about the issue. Not that I don't every now and then get into these kinds of fights myself

 

[kenpojujitsu]

But Guy Power did not see the scroll. Also, he did not say that he compared them to original documents known to be written by Kuniba or copies of documents people told him were written by Kuniba. Maybe the Church people sent him other fake documents to compare to.

Guy Power was not a student of Kuniba. What documents were used to compare to and where did they come from?

He saw an enhanced copy of a copy of what someone said came from the scroll.
He has no way of knowing that they did not just take other correspondence from Kuniba and piece this together. I think his zeal to try and salvage the reputation of his etacher has blinded him in this case.
It is sad to see someone with a good reputation make foolish judgements like this.

Again, until and unless an orginal document can be produced and verified as coming from Kuniba, the "kuniba scroll" story is just another modern day martial arts fairy tale.

 

[kamishinkan]

I had forgotten that Power sensei stated he compared the kanji on the scroll to other Kuniba documents.
I also believe it was Power sensei who enhanced the image???? The last thing I would believe is Power sensei making FOOLISH JUDGEMENTS.
His reputation is well established in the Martial arts community.

Again this could go on forever, I am happy with the copies of the documents we have to keep believing the "history" of Kamishin Ryu as given.