Anyone familiar with Chung Do Kwan?

[skribs]

Or move away... and teach as he taught you. Again... you in essence seem to have been saying " thanks for the time, give me that credential and endorsement so I can run off and do my own thing." I can't see why he might have taken that a little personally...

Note that I am not saying his way was right, or that you should have lied or misled him... just that he might have seen things from a certain point of view

This was also in the context of him telling me that I can't use his stuff unless I franchise under him and pay him for the rights to his curriculum.

 

[gyoja]

This was also in the context of him telling me that I can't use his stuff unless I franchise under him and pay him for the rights to his curriculum.

What was so unique about his curriculum? Does he belong to a larger organization? Do they have a published curriculum?

 

[skribs]

What was so unique about his curriculum? Does he belong to a larger organization? Do they have a published curriculum?

Kukkiwon has their 8 forms before black belt and 10 forms after black belt. That's about it. They have more at Kukkiwon, but as far as the curriculum they expect of everyone, it's 8 forms + sparring + breaking to get your black belt.

He has a curriculum that includes a bunch of memorized combinations, one-steps, and forms (including weapon combos, one-steps, and forms at black belt) in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.

He has so much stuff to learn that most students are allowed to brain dump between belts, i.e. red belts don't have to remember blue belt punch defense. In fact, I was the only student out of around 50 black belts that remembered the colored belt curriculum in order to be able to teach it, despite about a dozen black belts that were regular assistant instructors.

 

[gyoja]

Kukkiwon has their 8 forms before black belt and 10 forms after black belt. That's about it. They have more at Kukkiwon, but as far as the curriculum they expect of everyone, it's 8 forms + sparring + breaking to get your black belt.

He has a curriculum that includes a bunch of memorized combinations, one-steps, and forms (including weapon combos, one-steps, and forms at black belt) in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.

He has so much stuff to learn that most students are allowed to brain dump between belts, i.e. red belts don't have to remember blue belt punch defense. In fact, I was the only student out of around 50 black belts that remembered the colored belt curriculum in order to be able to teach it, despite about a dozen black belts that were regular assistant instructors.

And you can’t join Kukkiwon, or you don’t want to?

 

[skribs]

Kukkiwon has their 8 forms before black belt and 10 forms after black belt. That's about it. They have more at Kukkiwon, but as far as the curriculum they expect of everyone, it's 8 forms + sparring + breaking to get your black belt.

He has a curriculum that includes a bunch of memorized combinations, one-steps, and forms (including weapon combos, one-steps, and forms at black belt) in addition to the Kukkiwon curriculum.

He has so much stuff to learn that most students are allowed to brain dump between belts, i.e. red belts don't have to remember blue belt punch defense. In fact, I was the only student out of around 50 black belts that remembered the colored belt curriculum in order to be able to teach it, despite about a dozen black belts that were regular assistant instructors.

With this said, most of his stuff isn't unique. We had students transfer in from other schools and learn his one-steps and say, "We did this at my old school." There are also one-steps at the most recent school I went to that are verbatim the same as his.

He is so worried about people stealing his curriculum (that he claims is copyrighted) that he doesn't want to hand out written descriptions of the techniques or publish videos on Youtube. I don't think he realizes that anyone who is capable of memorizing his curriculum enough to steal it is probably going to be capable of creating their own, anyway. And in my case, I would prefer to create something much more streamlined.

As far as I can tell, the only thing he could copyright is the specific order of things, considering nothing he teaches is truly unique to him.

 

[skribs]

And you can’t join Kukkiwon, or you don’t want to?

Don't really want to. Don't like the Taegeuk forms. Don't like that WT sparring allows knockouts in certain brackets. Don't like that there may be additional requirements in the future.

I've never had a direct connection to Kukkiwon. Only the fact that the schools I've been to have been Kukkiwon. I don't know anyone there. I don't even speak their language.

There's 3 Kukkiwon schools in the area. I tried one and left. Another one I talked to the guy and felt it would be unsafe to train there. The third one didn't seem to want me. Although that was a few years ago, I may talk to him and see if he has a place for an outside 3rd degree now.

 

[gyoja]

Don't really want to. Don't like the Taegeuk forms. Don't like that WT sparring allows knockouts in certain brackets. Don't like that there may be additional requirements in the future.

I've never had a direct connection to Kukkiwon. Only the fact that the schools I've been to have been Kukkiwon. I don't know anyone there. I don't even speak their language.

There's 3 Kukkiwon schools in the area. I tried one and left. Another one I talked to the guy and felt it would be unsafe to train there. The third one didn't seem to want me. Although that was a few years ago, I may talk to him and see if he has a place for an outside 3rd degree now.

So your promotions were not certified through Kukkiwon, correct?

 

[skribs]

So your promotions were not certified through Kukkiwon, correct?

They were. My Master collected my Kukkiwon test application. Then, as a 6th degree black belt and certified Master through Kukkiwon, he tested me on his curriculum material. He sent my application and his recommendation to Kukkiwon, and they registered me as a black belt (and then later on 2nd and 3rd degree).

Some Kukkiwon folks who've known me for a while will point out that I did not test on the Taegeuks to get my black belt, but I did eventually test on the Taegeuks underneath him, so I had tested on the Kukkiwon material up to the requirements to receive 5th degree black belt (forms Taegeuk 1-8, Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, and Pyongwon). I was learning Sipjin prior to my leaving his school, which is the requirement to go from 5th to 6th.

 

[gyoja]

They were. My Master collected my Kukkiwon test application. Then, as a 6th degree black belt and certified Master through Kukkiwon, he tested me on his curriculum material. He sent my application and his recommendation to Kukkiwon, and they registered me as a black belt (and then later on 2nd and 3rd degree).

Some Kukkiwon folks who've known me for a while will point out that I did not test on the Taegeuks to get my black belt, but I did eventually test on the Taegeuks underneath him, so I had tested on the Kukkiwon material up to the requirements to receive 5th degree black belt (forms Taegeuk 1-8, Koryo, Keumgang, Taebaek, and Pyongwon). I was learning Sipjin prior to my leaving his school, which is the requirement to go from 5th to 6th.

Got it. You have to forgive me, I’m not familiar with the TKD world. Could you teach under your Kukkiwon certification as a 3rd degree?

 

[skribs]

Got it. You have to forgive me, I’m not familiar with the TKD world. Could you teach under your Kukkiwon certification as a 3rd degree?

I don't see anything wrong with teaching you. I could be mistaken on that.

However, I would be unable to promote you. It's questionable whether I could even legitimately promote you through colored belts. But I definitely would need to bring in someone who is qualified to oversee the black belt promotions and submit your application to Kukkiwon.

A qualified person is going to be someone who has reached 4th degree and completed the Kukkiwon Master certification course.

 

[gyoja]

I don't see anything wrong with teaching you. I could be mistaken on that.

However, I would be unable to promote you. It's questionable whether I could even legitimately promote you through colored belts. But I definitely would need to bring in someone who is qualified to oversee the black belt promotions and submit your application to Kukkiwon.

A qualified person is going to be someone who has reached 4th degree and completed the Kukkiwon Master certification course.

Ok. Got it. So, in theory you may be able to open a school and teach while attempting to find an instructor that can promote you to 4th degree.

 

[skribs]

Ok. Got it. So, in theory you may be able to open a school and teach while attempting to find an instructor that can promote you to 4th degree.

If I wanted to go with Kukkiwon.

I could teach you my curriculum and promote you with my certificates no problem right now.

The only question is: what do I do when you reach 2nd degree? If nobody is able to promote me to 4th, then the highest I could legitimately promote you is 2nd. Maybe 3rd.

In TKD, black belt is usually seen as a relatively beginner rank, similar to an associate's degree. In the two schools I attended recently, a black belt is minimum 2.5 years and 3 years (respectively). In my plans, it's a minimum of 2. So 2nd degree is a minimum of 3 years. At that point, it's not very long before you've topped out your potential advancement. Unless I find someone who can promote me.

And then let's say you become a teacher and use the 2nd degree rank as your credentials. Your students would cap at 1st. They couldn't even promote folks to black belt.

 

[gyoja]

Wouldn’t the organization be able to help you with that if necessary? I mean, it seems it would be in their interest to offer support to their members.

 

[skribs]

Wouldn’t the organization be able to help you with that if necessary? I mean, it seems it would be in their interest to offer support to their members.

Like I said, I don't know the organization. I've never directly interacted with them. I've only interacted with them through my Master. And I imagine they'd just refer me to local schools.

 

[gyoja]

Like I said, I don't know the organization. I've never directly interacted with them. I've only interacted with them through my Master. And I imagine they'd just refer me to local schools.

I would contact them and see what they can offer. It couldn’t hurt, right?

 

[jks9199]

This was also in the context of him telling me that I can't use his stuff unless I franchise under him and pay him for the rights to his curriculum.

Now who would've thunk that...

Just about anyone.

Seriously. You apparently implied you were going to bop off, teach "his" program, and he wanted a piece of the action... Makes sense to me.

Then, when you basically tell him you're gonna do your own thing anyway, he backed off. Not really shocking.

 

[skribs]

Now who would've thunk that...

Just about anyone.

Seriously. You apparently implied you were going to bop off, teach "his" program, and he wanted a piece of the action... Makes sense to me.

Then, when you basically tell him you're gonna do your own thing anyway, he backed off. Not really shocking.

You're making a lot of assumptions about how the conversation went and the nature of our relationship. Your comments are based on these very bold assumptions.

 

[skribs]

I would contact them and see what they can offer. It couldn’t hurt, right?

I honestly don't see how it would help, especially when I don't plan to go with them.

 

[gyoja]

I honestly don't see how it would help, especially when I don't plan to go with them.

It just seemed to me, as an outsider, that it wouldn’t hurt to teach under that certification and support until you reached your desired goals. Again, I’m not really familiar with the TKD world. It has been informative though.

 

[skribs]

It just seemed to me, as an outsider, that it wouldn’t hurt to teach under that certification and support until you reached your desired goals. Again, I’m not really familiar with the TKD world. It has been informative though.

At this point, it's metaphorically like going to my ex's father to ask for a job.