Anyone familiar with Chung Do Kwan?

[Flying Crane]

Sure there is, if it is not acceptable within your art. They will have the knowledge, but will have to demonstrate those skills to someone who has more experience than their own instructor. It’s really not a big deal. His student could just go test elsewhere; pretty common.

Except that he is developing his own curriculum so there is nobody higher to test his students.

I maintain it is a silly rule. But if you want to be part of an organization, you play by their rules. If membership is not important to you, then you decide your own rules.

 

[gyoja]

Except that he is developing his own curriculum so there is nobody higher to test his students.

I maintain it is a silly rule. But if you want to be part of an organization, you play by their rules. If membership is not important to you, then you decide your own rules.

I agree that it is not necessary if you create your own system. It seems to me though that he wants to be recognized by the TKD community. I’m making suggestions on how to achieve that while still moving forward with his goal of opening a school.

 

[wab25]

I would be curious to see what these organizations are.

I was hoping for some sort of martial arts organization that might sign certificates.

So, every few months, I get an invitation to be put into a Martial Arts Hall of Fame.... I just need to send them $1600 dollars... unless I want a certificate to keep, which will be another $400 or a plague for $1000. Then I need to buy a seat at the banquet to receive the award... $300 per seat.... The banquet will be held at such and such hotel... use this code when booking your room....

And no I will not forward these to you. (I was being sarcastic) Most of these will also promote you to whatever rank you want for another check... yes they will sign the certificates.

If you want to actually meet the person signing the certificate.... just go to a bunch of local "karate" tournaments. I found all kinds of sensei and instructors there that were willing to promote me in rank for either a small fee or for promoting them. While I could go back and find a bunch of these guys for you... I won't. I have too much respect for the martial arts and too much respect for you as a martial artist than to help you get rank by writing a check....

If you want to teach Skribs TKD.... then teach it. You have more than enough credibility will the rank you currently have.... it is a real rank that you put training in for. If you got a Chung Do Kwan certificate... they would only be looking at and validating your Chung Do Kwan.... but that is not what you want to teach.... and not the curriculum you will teach. It would be like me using my Danzan Ryu rank to teach TKD....

 

[HighKick]

Promotions in TKD beyond a certain point are either:

• A bunch of new things to memorize, which are rearrangements of things you've learned before.
• Mostly a formality based on time-in-grade.

What I mean by this is, if you compare the requirements from my 3rd degree test to what would have been on my 4th degree test, the vast majority of them are just new combinations of old techniques.

For example, at my school, we had rote memorized combinations for testing. One combination in the advanced colored belts was roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, step-behind side kick. One combination in 1st degree black belt was roundhouse kick, step-behind side kick, spin hook kick. One combination at 2nd degree was roundhouse kick, spin hook kick, roundhouse kick, spin hook kick.

By 3rd degree, out of every 10 new items I had to learn for my test, only 3 of them had something that wasn't covered in previous tested material, and only 1 of those had something that was actually new to me. For example, there are no colored belt combos that use a double roundhouse kick or have a foot switch. One of the black belt combos is double kick, switch, double kick. But we did do double kicks and foot switches as part of the drilling in colored belts. So this was technically new as far as the rote curriculum goes, but wasn't actually a new technique.

I would still call this valuable incremental progression. The ability to do the variations of a given kick is invaluable. Chaining them together correctly is sparring 101.

 

[Flying Crane]

So, every few months, I get an invitation to be put into a Martial Arts Hall of Fame.... I just need to send them $1600 dollars... unless I want a certificate to keep, which will be another $400 or a plague for $1000. Then I need to buy a seat at the banquet to receive the award... $300 per seat.... The banquet will be held at such and such hotel... use this code when booking your room....

And no I will not forward these to you. (I was being sarcastic) Most of these will also promote you to whatever rank you want for another check... yes they will sign the certificates.

If you want to actually meet the person signing the certificate.... just go to a bunch of local "karate" tournaments. I found all kinds of sensei and instructors there that were willing to promote me in rank for either a small fee or for promoting them. While I could go back and find a bunch of these guys for you... I won't. I have too much respect for the martial arts and too much respect for you as a martial artist than to help you get rank by writing a check....

If you want to teach Skribs TKD.... then teach it. You have more than enough credibility will the rank you currently have.... it is a real rank that you put training in for. If you got a Chung Do Kwan certificate... they would only be looking at and validating your Chung Do Kwan.... but that is not what you want to teach.... and not the curriculum you will teach. It would be like me using my Danzan Ryu rank to teach TKD....

Wow, that is a lot of money to get someone I’ve never met, who has never seen What I can do, to give me a piece of paper that says I am better today than I was yesterday.

What an embarrassment to the arts.

 

[gyoja]

I guess we will just have to see what @skribs has decided to do.

 

[skribs]

I agree that it is not necessary if you create your own system. It seems to me though that he wants to be recognized by the TKD community. I’m making suggestions on how to achieve that while still moving forward with his goal of opening a school.

Not necessarily the TKD community. That's just the community with people most likely to recognize me.

I want it to be something external. Something that isn't just "I'm 4th degree because I think I am."

 

[gyoja]

Not necessarily the TKD community. That's just the community with people most likely to recognize me.

I want it to be something external. Something that isn't just "I'm 4th degree because I think I am."

I believe, from what you posted, that the TKD community would be the most direct avenue to achieve this.

 

[skribs]

And no I will not forward these to you. (I was being sarcastic) Most of these will also promote you to whatever rank you want for another check... yes they will sign the certificates.

Sarcasm doesn't really come through over text.

I wanted more information because there's a few different ways to take what you had said. What you describe, yes I agree that's in bad form. What I was thinking is some sort of group with a relatively simple online video submission or something to that extent.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So, every few months, I get an invitation to be put into a Martial Arts Hall of Fame.... I just need to send them $1600 dollars... unless I want a certificate to keep, which will be another $400 or a plague for $1000. Then I need to buy a seat at the banquet to receive the award... $300 per seat.... The banquet will be held at such and such hotel... use this code when booking your room....

And no I will not forward these to you. (I was being sarcastic) Most of these will also promote you to whatever rank you want for another check... yes they will sign the certificates.

If you want to actually meet the person signing the certificate.... just go to a bunch of local "karate" tournaments. I found all kinds of sensei and instructors there that were willing to promote me in rank for either a small fee or for promoting them. While I could go back and find a bunch of these guys for you... I won't. I have too much respect for the martial arts and too much respect for you as a martial artist than to help you get rank by writing a check....

If you want to teach Skribs TKD.... then teach it. You have more than enough credibility will the rank you currently have.... it is a real rank that you put training in for. If you got a Chung Do Kwan certificate... they would only be looking at and validating your Chung Do Kwan.... but that is not what you want to teach.... and not the curriculum you will teach. It would be like me using my Danzan Ryu rank to teach TKD....

once looked into the 'Martial Arts Hall of Fame" because I was contacted by a taijiquan guy who made sure I knew he was in the "Martial Arts Hall of Fame".... it was a money making sham then and sounds like it still is.

But hey, I could have been a brown belt in Judo without ever taking a class. A guy wanted me to teach taijiquan at his judo school, but wanted me to be covered by his insurance, but to do that I had to be a Brown belt in Judo.... suffice to say I never taught there, told him I couldn't fit it into my schedule after the whole brown belt thing

 

[skribs]

I believe, from what you posted, that the TKD community would be the most direct avenue to achieve this.

I would think so, too. But it really hasn't happened.

• My Master from my previous location pretty much stopped having time for me the moment I told him I was moving away, and that if I moved away I would teach my own stuff instead of his. That's pretty much the reason I'm not a 4th degree now. He wouldn't do private lessons anymore, kept pushing my tests back, barely teaching me new things that I needed for my tests, didn't care enough to make sure he was doing things correct if he did teach me, cut my hours as an instructor, constantly asked "when are you leaving?" So he's not an option.
• The three Kukkiwon schools in the area include one that doesn't want me, one that's too soft, and one that has been deemed full of red flags by me, my Dad, parents who thought about taking their kids there, and multiple moderators on this forum.
• The other schools in the area are in a branch of TKD that's the exact opposite of the direction I want to go. I want to minimize the rote memorization, and these are styles that are known to have it in spades.
• I've reached out online to various organizations that seem to have online options. Those that reached back didn't have options that fit my situation (i.e. I'm too high rank already).

Honestly, the more I look at Tang Soo Do, the more I think it might be the answer. There's a lot of TSD in my area. I like that they seem to be a more traditional style than KKW. They don't seem to have too many forms like ATA and TR. I like that their sparring style is lighter contact than WT, that there isn't a knockout bracket at upper belts.

I'm not 100% sure that it's exactly what I want. Some of the forms I've seen are done in a different style than I'd choose. From other conversations I've had, I think there are 90 memorized one-steps, which is way more than I want to use. And while I'm glad there aren't KOs in sparring, from the rules I've read I wonder if the sparring goes too far in the other direction (which was also a problem I had with the KKW school I tried in my area).

But at the very least, it's the closest to the style I plan to use, and it seems to be the closest to how I want to train.

 

[gyoja]

I would think so, too. But it really hasn't happened.

• My Master from my previous location pretty much stopped having time for me the moment I told him I was moving away, and that if I moved away I would teach my own stuff instead of his. That's pretty much the reason I'm not a 4th degree now. He wouldn't do private lessons anymore, kept pushing my tests back, barely teaching me new things that I needed for my tests, didn't care enough to make sure he was doing things correct if he did teach me, cut my hours as an instructor, constantly asked "when are you leaving?" So he's not an option.
• The three Kukkiwon schools in the area include one that doesn't want me, one that's too soft, and one that has been deemed full of red flags by me, my Dad, parents who thought about taking their kids there, and multiple moderators on this forum.
• The other schools in the area are in a branch of TKD that's the exact opposite of the direction I want to go. I want to minimize the rote memorization, and these are styles that are known to have it in spades.
• I've reached out online to various organizations that seem to have online options. Those that reached back didn't have options that fit my situation (i.e. I'm too high rank already).

Honestly, the more I look at Tang Soo Do, the more I think it might be the answer. There's a lot of TSD in my area. I like that they seem to be a more traditional style than KKW. They don't seem to have too many forms like ATA and TR. I like that their sparring style is lighter contact than WT, that there isn't a knockout bracket at upper belts.

I'm not 100% sure that it's exactly what I want. Some of the forms I've seen are done in a different style than I'd choose. From other conversations I've had, I think there are 90 memorized one-steps, which is way more than I want to use. And while I'm glad there aren't KOs in sparring, from the rules I've read I wonder if the sparring goes too far in the other direction (which was also a problem I had with the KKW school I tried in my area).

But at the very least, it's the closest to the style I plan to use, and it seems to be the closest to how I want to train.

Seems like you have some viable options.

 

[J. Pickard]

I want it to be something external. Something that isn't just "I'm 4th degree because I think I am."

Why? This will have little impact on your students. New students coming in have no idea what any governing body is and if you give them good training they won't care. Since I took over my Dojang in 2019 I have had exactly 2 students ask what rank I am (I don't wear dan stripes on my belt) and nobody has ever said "who says you are that rank?". Nobody cares and it's not a factor most people consider when looking for a martial arts school to begin their training with.

Something to consider; the highest rank any kwan founder ever achieved externally, as far as I can find, was a 4th dan. That's it. Then suddenly the unification happens to form TKD and a bunch of them are suddenly 9th and 10th dan after the "unification". Says who? Who certified them to be that rank? If someone else saying you have the credentials is all that mattered, then there would never be a TKD 9th dan or even 5th dan.

If you want to create your own system and promote within that system then nobody can stop you. What gives credibility to a style or a system isn't certification from people outside of that system, it is what the system can provide. If you train a bunch of students and they compete is various rulesets and win then it's credible as a system for tournaments. If you say that your system can help kids focus better and you provide that focus in a quantitative way then the system works for improving focus and it's credible in that regard.

 

[jks9199]

My Master from my previous location pretty much stopped having time for me the moment I told him I was moving away, and that if I moved away I would teach my own stuff instead of his. That's pretty much the reason I'm not a 4th degree now. He wouldn't do private lessons anymore, kept pushing my tests back, barely teaching me new things that I needed for my tests, didn't care enough to make sure he was doing things correct if he did teach me, cut my hours as an instructor, constantly asked "when are you leaving?" So he's not an option.

Gee... You basically told him "I'm not going to be loyal to you or represent you; I'm gonna do my own thing" -- and then you're surprised when he didn't want to invest any further time into you? Shocking, huh...

Look, at this point, you're pretty clearly saying you just want to do your own thing -- but you also want external validation and credentialling. I'd be surprised if you find anywhere that's going to do that and isn't merely a paper credential. Bit the bullet and make plans to do it, and stop hunting a credential that doesn't really help you much.

 

[skribs]

Gee... You basically told him "I'm not going to be loyal to you or represent you; I'm gonna do my own thing" -- and then you're surprised when he didn't want to invest any further time into you? Shocking, huh...

I was a paying customer and was his right-hand man for several years. I had hoped that would buy me the goodwill to finish out my degree.

Look, at this point, you're pretty clearly saying you just want to do your own thing -- but you also want external validation and credentialling. I'd be surprised if you find anywhere that's going to do that and isn't merely a paper credential. Bit the bullet and make plans to do it, and stop hunting a credential that doesn't really help you much.

It happens in other industries, why not martial arts?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I was a paying customer and

Perhaps the instructor did not view the relationship as one that was mainly commercial in nature.

 

[gyoja]

Perhaps the instructor did not view the relationship as one that was mainly commercial in nature.

Does sound like he took it personally.

 

[skribs]

Does sound like he took it personally.

He did. And I consider that to be on him. I'm not going to feel guilty for moving away. It needed to happen. I'm not going to feel guilty for doing my own thing. Especially when he had done the same thing a few years before I joined his school.

In hindsight, another option would have been to stay silent. Not forewarn him that I was leaving. Just get my 4th degree and bounce. But I couldn't do that in good conscience.

 

[gyoja]

He did. And I consider that to be on him. I'm not going to feel guilty for moving away. It needed to happen. I'm not going to feel guilty for doing my own thing. Especially when he had done the same thing a few years before I joined his school.

In hindsight, another option would have been to stay silent. Not forewarn him that I was leaving. Just get my 4th degree and bounce. But I couldn't do that in good conscience.

I guess that you could take it as a learning point. I was once told that I would learn more from my bad leaders than my good ones. (What not to do)

 

[jks9199]

He did. And I consider that to be on him. I'm not going to feel guilty for moving away. It needed to happen. I'm not going to feel guilty for doing my own thing. Especially when he had done the same thing a few years before I joined his school.

In hindsight, another option would have been to stay silent. Not forewarn him that I was leaving. Just get my 4th degree and bounce. But I couldn't do that in good conscience.

Or move away... and teach as he taught you. Again... you in essence seem to have been saying " thanks for the time, give me that credential and endorsement so I can run off and do my own thing." I can't see why he might have taken that a little personally...

Note that I am not saying his way was right, or that you should have lied or misled him... just that he might have seen things from a certain point of view