Anyone familiar with Chung Do Kwan?

[HighKick]

I already had 4 years time-in-grade at my old school, had completed 4-out-of-5 tests towards the belt. I had tested on items above the KKW requirements to get 4th degree. But that doesn't matter, because I wasn't able to complete it there.

At a new school, it doesn't matter what progress I had at my previous school. My timers are reset. This is based on what happened here. Yes, I could go to a new school and say "I'm almost 4th degree, just let me test", but most likely they're not going to let me. Case-in-point: this school told me that my level tests at my previous school didn't matter, that I need to go through 3rd degree at his school.

My experience at 3rd degree (and more than just what I listed here) would be my justification if I did go down the self-promotion route. But it doesn't seem to hold much weight when I join a new school.

If it's going to make me a worse martial artist and worse instructor, it's not worth it.


You gave bad advice that you presented like an easy and obvious solution. It was a combination of the bad advice and the ego behind it that made me decide to give you the thumbs down. If I went with your "as simple as that" plan, I'd be worse off. Hence, I disagreed with your suggestion.

already had 4 years time-in-grade at my old school, had completed 4-out-of-5 tests towards the belt. I had tested on items above the KKW requirements to get 4th degree. But that doesn't matter, because I wasn't able to complete it there.

At a new school, it doesn't matter what progress I had at my previous school. My timers are reset. This is based on what happened here. Yes, I could go to a new school and say "I'm almost 4th degree, just let me test", but most likely they're not going to let me. Case-in-point: this school told me that my level tests at my previous school didn't matter, that I need to go through 3rd degree at his school.

My experience at 3rd degree (and more than just what I listed here) would be my justification if I did go down the self-promotion route. But it doesn't seem to hold much weight when I join a new school.

I am well aware of your saga (as are most others here). How long has it been since you moved? This is where the clock really starts doesn't it?

If it's going to make me a worse martial artist and worse instructor, it's not worth it.

It does not have to. Much of that will be on you. No, it may not be 'ideal' but I am not sure you will ever find your version of ideal.

You gave bad advice that you presented like an easy and obvious solution. It was a combination of the bad advice and the ego behind it that made me decide to give you the thumbs down. If I went with your "as simple as that" plan, I'd be worse off. Hence, I disagreed with your suggestion.

You are entitled to your opinion. I obviously gave a limited explanation to what I meant. It is not bad advice. Just hard for you to process.
We have a very common and apt saying here, "suck it up buttercup". Definitely applies to your situation.

 

[skribs]

It is not bad advice. Just hard for you to process.

Get over yourself.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There's ITF in Austin. I haven't really looked into ITF. I'm kind of on the fence with it. ........................

I may start looking into some of those.

When you consider the investment you will make with your time and energy after you commit to something the resources you will expend looking at as many potential schools as possible can pay huge dividends. IMO it's more about the Instructor than organization.

 

[skribs]

You do not need an organization to give you a piece of paper. (if you want the piece of paper that bad, there are plenty of places that will make you 4th, 5th, 6th... 10 dan for a check.... Let me know, I can forward you the invitations I get...

I would be curious to see what these organizations are.

Don't get me wrong, my ideal situation is still either A) finding something local that I connect with or B) shaking the remote TKD tree until a mentor falls out. But I'd at least like to see what my options are. Third-party certificates are better than self promotions, even if the difference is a technicality.

 

[HighKick]

I would be curious to see what these organizations are.

Don't get me wrong, my ideal situation is still either A) finding something local that I connect with or B) shaking the remote TKD tree until a mentor falls out. But I'd at least like to see what my options are. Third-party certificates are better than self promotions, even if the difference is a technicality.

Not for certain, but I think what @wab25 is referring to are the countless printing services that can reproduce certificates.

For example, I lost one of my diplomas (along with a lot more) in a building fire. It was for one of the two Master programs I completed in the late '90's/early 2,000's so they were certainly not new. Instead of paying $500 to my university for a replacement, I paid about $50 to Realistic Diplomas. I would say it is a better-quality document than my other Masters diploma.

They do a good job of background checking for authenticity (in a school setting), but they will also create any document you desire.

 

[skribs]

Not for certain, but I think what @wab25 is referring to are the countless printing services that can reproduce certificates.

For example, I lost one of my diplomas (along with a lot more) in a building fire. It was for one of the two Master programs I completed in the late '90's/early 2,000's so they were certainly not new. Instead of paying $500 to my university for a replacement, I paid about $50 to Realistic Diplomas. I would say it is a better-quality document than my other Masters diploma.

They do a good job of background checking for authenticity (in a school setting), but they will also create any document you desire.

If it's just printing documents, then it isn't a third-party promotion, just a printing service.

I was hoping for some sort of martial arts organization that might sign certificates.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would be curious to see what these organizations are.

I would strongly advise you to not go down that road. While such rank might fool the beginner who does not know any better, people who get rank through these “organizations” are the subject of a lot of ridicule by those who are experienced in the martial arts, even if that person is skilled. Doing an end-run around rank is a quick way to tarnish your reputation. You don’t want somebody coming onto Martialtalk someday saying, “Hey, there is this TKD school near my home but i did some research on the guy and it seems he was a TKD third Dan but then got promoted to “X” Dan through this shady “cash my cheque” promotions mill. What do you guys think? Should I check him out?” And that is you he is talking about. The respect of your peers is important, in my opinion, but I admit that often seems to get thrown to the wind in the name of running a profitable business.

I think you are over-analyzing this rank thing. Especially if you are designing your own TKD-based curriculum, you should just go for it. If you want to teach, then teach. If it is your own creation, then you make the rules. Either it will prove to have merit and it will grow and thrive, or it will not.

And I honestly do not understand the whole thing about only being able to promote students to one rank below you. That sounds to me like someone with a financial interest connected to enforcing a hierarchy. In my opinion, if you are a teacher you can teach all the way up to your level. Chinese methods that usually do not use a belt system are great in that way. If you are a teacher, you teach all the way up as much as you know. When your student shows the capability, he/she can become a teacher. End of story.

 

[skribs]

I would strongly advise you to not go down that road. While such rank might fool the beginner who does not know any better, people who get rank through these “organizations” are the subject of a lot of ridicule by those who are experienced in the martial arts, even if that person is skilled. Doing an end-run around rank is a quick way to tarnish your reputation. You don’t want somebody coming onto Martialtalk someday saying, “Hey, there is this TKD school near my home but i did some research on the guy and it seems he was a TKD third Dan but then got promoted to “X” Dan through this shady “cash my cheque” promotions mill. What do you guys think? Should I check him out?” And that is you he is talking about. The respect of your peers is important, in my opinion, but I admit that often seems to get thrown to the wind in the name of running a profitable business.

I think you are over-analyzing this rank thing. Especially if you are designing your own TKD-based curriculum, you should just go for it. If you want to teach, then teach. If it is your own creation, then you make the rules. Either it will prove to have merit and it will grow and thrive, or it will not.

And I honestly do not understand the whole thing about only being able to promote students to one rank below you. That sounds to me like someone with a financial interest connected to enforcing a hierarchy. In my opinion, if you are a teacher you can teach all the way up to your level. Chinese methods that usually do not use a belt system are great in that way. If you are a teacher, you teach all the way up as much as you know. When your student shows the capability, he/she can become a teacher. End of story.

Promotions in TKD beyond a certain point are either:

• A bunch of new things to memorize, which are rearrangements of things you've learned before.
• Mostly a formality based on time-in-grade.

What I mean by this is, if you compare the requirements from my 3rd degree test to what would have been on my 4th degree test, the vast majority of them are just new combinations of old techniques.

For example, at my school, we had rote memorized combinations for testing. One combination in the advanced colored belts was roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, step-behind side kick. One combination in 1st degree black belt was roundhouse kick, step-behind side kick, spin hook kick. One combination at 2nd degree was roundhouse kick, spin hook kick, roundhouse kick, spin hook kick.

By 3rd degree, out of every 10 new items I had to learn for my test, only 3 of them had something that wasn't covered in previous tested material, and only 1 of those had something that was actually new to me. For example, there are no colored belt combos that use a double roundhouse kick or have a foot switch. One of the black belt combos is double kick, switch, double kick. But we did do double kicks and foot switches as part of the drilling in colored belts. So this was technically new as far as the rote curriculum goes, but wasn't actually a new technique.

 

[gyoja]

And I honestly do not understand the whole thing about only being able to promote students to one rank below you. That sounds to me like someone with a financial interest connected to enforcing a hierarchy. In my opinion, if you are a teacher you can teach all the way up to your level. Chinese methods that usually do not use a belt system are great in that way. If you are a teacher, you teach all the way up as much as you know. When your student shows the capability, he/she can become a teacher. End of story.

This is similar in my art. In order for the student to be able to promote to my level, I would have to teach them all that I know. I just can’t promote them solo. Someone of higher rank would be present to form a testing board. For us, there was no additional charge. This is a quality control measure. @skribs, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[skribs]

This is similar in my art. In order for the student to be able to promote to my level, I would have to teach them all that I know. I just can’t promote them solo. Someone of higher rank would be present to form a testing board. For us, there was no additional charge. This is a quality control measure. @skribs, correct me if I am wrong.

I don't think I can correct you on your own experiences.

One question to ask is, what is "all that I know"? Because that may change day-to-day as you learn more or forget stuff. Is it a subjective value of your abilities and experience? Or is it an objective value of, "I know Punch #1-8, Kick #1-8, Forms #1-10, Punch Defense #1-30..."?

If it's a subjective value, how much of "all that I know" is relevant? Do I need to teach someone everything I know about TKD, HKD, BJJ, and Muay Thai in order to consider it good? Or just all that I know of TKD?

But yeah, the problem in my situation is that I don't have a testing board. If I did, then whether or not I'm high enough to promote wouldn't be an issue for 2 reasons:

1. There would be a path for promotion for my students.
2. With a path for promotion, I also could continue to gain rank, and that significantly shrinks the pool of students that I would be unable to "promote to 1 level beneath me."

I do think if I were to do things the way that @Flying Crane suggests, then I would be doing Kung Fu and not Taekwondo. And since I've never set foot in a Kung Fu class, and it is a drastic historical change from Kung Fu to Karate to TKD, I don't think it would be a fair comparison.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think in terms of marketing, you're over thinking this. If you're not planning to teach kukkiwon, but that's where your training is, open skribs TKD. You're the founder, so you can be whatever rank you want. The number of people who ask online about you, and are able to find that you were 3rd degree kukkiwon before switching, is pretty much negligible. Yeah, they exist, but they shouldn't effect your bottom line. Especially since most parents are really looking for a daycare service that teaches confidence and values when they sign their kids up for TKD.

 

[gyoja]

I don't think I can correct you on your own experiences.

One question to ask is, what is "all that I know"? Because that may change day-to-day as you learn more or forget stuff. Is it a subjective value of your abilities and experience? Or is it an objective value of, "I know Punch #1-8, Kick #1-8, Forms #1-10, Punch Defense #1-30..."?

If it's a subjective value, how much of "all that I know" is relevant? Do I need to teach someone everything I know about TKD, HKD, BJJ, and Muay Thai in order to consider it good? Or just all that I know of TKD?

But yeah, the problem in my situation is that I don't have a testing board. If I did, then whether or not I'm high enough to promote wouldn't be an issue for 2 reasons:

1. There would be a path for promotion for my students.
2. With a path for promotion, I also could continue to gain rank, and that significantly shrinks the pool of students that I would be unable to "promote to 1 level beneath me."

I do think if I were to do things the way that @Flying Crane suggests, then I would be doing Kung Fu and not Taekwondo. And since I've never set foot in a Kung Fu class, and it is a drastic historical change from Kung Fu to Karate to TKD, I don't think it would be a fair comparison.

For promotion I would ensure that they knew everything that was required for them to pass their test. In my case, by that point I would have also taught them all that I know about BJJ and Hapkido if they were interested.

 

[HighKick]

If it's just printing documents, then it isn't a third-party promotion, just a printing service.

I was hoping for some sort of martial arts organization that might sign certificates.

Yes, but it was printing a specific document, which they did not have an exact copy of on thick parchment paper.

If you are not going to do the work again, and just looking for someone to 'sign off', I don't really see the difference.

 

[Flying Crane]

Promotions in TKD beyond a certain point are either:

• A bunch of new things to memorize, which are rearrangements of things you've learned before.
• Mostly a formality based on time-in-grade.

What I mean by this is, if you compare the requirements from my 3rd degree test to what would have been on my 4th degree test, the vast majority of them are just new combinations of old techniques.

For example, at my school, we had rote memorized combinations for testing. One combination in the advanced colored belts was roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, step-behind side kick. One combination in 1st degree black belt was roundhouse kick, step-behind side kick, spin hook kick. One combination at 2nd degree was roundhouse kick, spin hook kick, roundhouse kick, spin hook kick.

By 3rd degree, out of every 10 new items I had to learn for my test, only 3 of them had something that wasn't covered in previous tested material, and only 1 of those had something that was actually new to me. For example, there are no colored belt combos that use a double roundhouse kick or have a foot switch. One of the black belt combos is double kick, switch, double kick. But we did do double kicks and foot switches as part of the drilling in colored belts. So this was technically new as far as the rote curriculum goes, but wasn't actually a new technique.

So my argument is, why do you continue to feel you need the promotion? At some point they become meaningless other than as a marketing gimmick for the uninformed. Especially because you are designing your own curriculum anyways. Sounds to me like it will be your own interpretation of a TKD-based methodology. So establish your own rules.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is similar in my art. In order for the student to be able to promote to my level, I would have to teach them all that I know. I just can’t promote them solo. Someone of higher rank would be present to form a testing board. For us, there was no additional charge. This is a quality control measure. @skribs, correct me if I am wrong.

I can understand that as a quality-control measure, even if a visiting instructor was from a different system but represented a trusted member of the local martial arts community. But once you step away from the politics and the membership to a larger organization, none of which is actually necessary, then there is no actual need to follow such a rule.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't think I can correct you on your own experiences.

One question to ask is, what is "all that I know"? Because that may change day-to-day as you learn more or forget stuff. Is it a subjective value of your abilities and experience? Or is it an objective value of, "I know Punch #1-8, Kick #1-8, Forms #1-10, Punch Defense #1-30..."?

If it's a subjective value, how much of "all that I know" is relevant? Do I need to teach someone everything I know about TKD, HKD, BJJ, and Muay Thai in order to consider it good? Or just all that I know of TKD?

But yeah, the problem in my situation is that I don't have a testing board. If I did, then whether or not I'm high enough to promote wouldn't be an issue for 2 reasons:

1. There would be a path for promotion for my students.
2. With a path for promotion, I also could continue to gain rank, and that significantly shrinks the pool of students that I would be unable to "promote to 1 level beneath me."

I do think if I were to do things the way that @Flying Crane suggests, then I would be doing Kung Fu and not Taekwondo. And since I've never set foot in a Kung Fu class, and it is a drastic historical change from Kung Fu to Karate to TKD, I don't think it would be a fair comparison.

I do not believe you would be doing kung fu. You would simply be recognizing that some of the “rules” are unnecessary and may be little more than an avenue for someone else to keep control over what you are doing, probably for financial motivations. Seriously, I believe it is a silly rule, probably with manipulative origins. It is not necessary.

 

[gyoja]

I can understand that as a quality-control measure, even if a visiting instructor was from a different system but represented a trusted member of the local martial arts community. But once you step away from the politics and the membership to a larger organization, none of which is actually necessary, then there is no actual need to follow such a rule.

I wouldn’t say that it is unnecessary. If I wanted to learn more, especially in my art, I would require the mentorship of an instructor. The instructor would therefore have to be a higher rank in order to teach me the new material, or I would already know it. You would need an instructor of higher rank for the test for the same reason.

 

[gyoja]

I do agree that @skribs should just open a school, if that is what he wants to do. I would focus on one art, say TKD. In order to have himself and his students universally certified, he could continue to reach out to organizations and apply for membership.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wouldn’t say that it is unnecessary. If I wanted to learn more, especially in my art, I would require the mentorship of an instructor. The instructor would therefore have to be a higher rank in order to teach me the new material, or I would already know it. You would need an instructor of higher rank for the test for the same reason.

Of course you need an instructor to learn more.

There is no reason, once you yourself are an instructor, that you cannot promote someone to your own level.

 

[gyoja]

Of course you need an instructor to learn more.

There is no reason, once you yourself are an instructor, that you cannot promote someone to your own level.

Sure there is, if it is not acceptable within your art. They will have the knowledge, but will have to demonstrate those skills to someone who has more experience than their own instructor. It’s really not a big deal. His student could just go test elsewhere; pretty common.