Anyone ever met someone who only trains forms and basics?

[isshinryuronin]

I don’t remember Tadashi Yamashita from the film I watched recently,

I searched youtube "The Strongest Karate" and watched that. Mostly kyokushin but the last part showed kobudo. I didn't find "The Greatest Karate."

Never been hit with a shinai

A moderate hit doesn't hurt. I used it to show the student's openings when I was too lazy to fire a kick at them.

 

[windwalker099]

It could be 15 minutes, or 10 minutes. Either my memory was wrong, or he told me wrong. He died few years later in a car accident. No way to confirm on that.

sorry to hear....

Seemed like a long time...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It seems like you either did not carefully read or fully understand my post from this quote as my entire post was devoted to your point #3 which I quoted. Or do you disagree with my statements in that post? If so, which ones? Can you respond as thoroughly as I addressed this particular issue?

I just point out that there are 4 parts of MA skill development:

1. develop.
2. polish.
3. enhance.
4. test.

I have proved that by doing 4 without 1, 2, 3 can be enough. But that can be an extreme case.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

sorry to hear....

Seemed like a long time...

1974 or 1975.

 

[isshinryuronin]

One might ask did these guys spar or did they train basic's and mind set.

Interesting to see he used some point strikes with his thumb. Something he may have picked up from old jiu-jutsu or his time in China. He also used mostly open hand strikes rather than fist.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I searched youtube "The Strongest Karate" and watched that. Mostly kyokushin but the last part showed kobudo. I didn't find "The Greatest Karate."

That's the one I watched. You're right. I just double checked on Amazon. Getting mixed up because I followed it up with a couple of other similar watches, including The Black Kung-Fu Experience. Which was interesting because it featured two African American kung fu teachers local to my area (the DC region).

A moderate hit doesn't hurt. I used it to show the student's openings when I was too lazy to fire a kick at them.

A moderate hit with the rattan olisi hurts plenty. But a controlled hit is what we'd generally get under those circumstances. Which obviously doesn't feel great. But...

 

[Buka]

I don’t remember Tadashi Yamashita from the film I watched recently, though I’m very familiar with him more generally.

Never been hit with a shinai (though I have one). Been hit with plenty of olisi (“eskrima sticks”).

The movie I watched followed the American team to that kyokushin tournament in Japan. Showed matches between various countries through the course of the movie.

Interesting to see the point matches you’ve referenced pre-foam dipped pads.

Yamashita could seriously rock.

We were training in a black belt seminar and Yamashita was explaining something we were about to do.

And there’s a big guy who’s shaking his head as Yamashita is talking.

Yamashita looks at him and says “You shake head. Why?”

The guy says, “Well, that might work with a lightweight, but it’s not going to work on a guy my size. There just isn’t any way.”

And I’m thinking to myself, “Dude, you signed up for this seminar, you obviously knew who he was. And now you’re being disrespectful and contradicting him? Are you nuts?”

Yamashita says, “Come, you show.”

So the guy walks up to him. And Yamashita is not a large man, the guy is dwarfing him.

They square off and the guy comes at him. Yamashita hits him with the technique that wouldn’t work against a big guy, a body shot so fricken fast all of us there went from hating the guy to honestly feeling sorry for him. The guy’s body is suddenly in shock. He can’t breathe in, he can’t move, he can’t even fall.

Finally he crumbles to the ground. Yamashita stands over him and says. “You show why not work. I wait.”

The guy eventually breathes in. And crawls away to the sidelines.

But to give the guy his due, about fifteen minutes later he asks permission to approach. Yamashita nods.
The guy bows to Yamashita, then to the whole group and apologizes to everyone. Then rejoins the seminar.

He didn’t have anymore questions.

Later that night, Yamashita did a breaking demo using certain principles and techniques taught in the seminar. One of which was not squeezing your fist hard when punching someone. “Use proper technique, not squeeze fist hard.”

I swear to God, he did a punch break to a nasty bunch of cement slabs, shattering them.

Then he holds up the
hand he used in the break and slowly opens it.

A Japanese White Eye (a small bird) flew out of his hand and went up to the rafters.

There’s a lot of Japanese White Eyes out here. I see them nearly every day. They always make me think of Tadashi Yamashita.

 

[Haruhiko]

How proficient could someone get from a routine like that?

Proficient in what? Not only is this style related, it's school related.

Example, in the "style" of kenjutsu, some "schools" do practise and even encourage sparring as part of their curriculum.

Other schools forbid it.

It's entirely dependant on the art you're studying and what you want, personally, as a martial artist.

 

[Haruhiko]

We had a black belt come in once who trained in "real jujitsu"

I am pretty sure he had never rolled in his life.

"Real" jujutsu isn't "rolling". That is a very BJJ way of appreciating jujutsu.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yamashita could seriously rock.

We were training in a black belt seminar and Yamashita was explaining something we were about to do.

And there’s a big guy who’s shaking his head as Yamashita is talking.

Yamashita looks at him and says “You shake head. Why?”

The guy says, “Well, that might work with a lightweight, but it’s not going to work on a guy my size. There just isn’t any way.”

And I’m thinking to myself, “Dude, you signed up for this seminar, you obviously knew who he was. And now you’re being disrespectful and contradicting him? Are you nuts?”

Yamashita says, “Come, you show.”

So the guy walks up to him. And Yamashita is not a large man, the guy is dwarfing him.

They square off and the guy comes at him. Yamashita hits him with the technique that wouldn’t work against a big guy, a body shot so fricken fast all of us there went from hating the guy to honestly feeling sorry for him. The guy’s body is suddenly in shock. He can’t breathe in, he can’t move, he can’t even fall.

Finally he crumbles to the ground. Yamashita stands over him and says. “You show why not work. I wait.”

The guy eventually breathes in. And crawls away to the sidelines.

But to give the guy his due, about fifteen minutes later he asks permission to approach. Yamashita nods.
The guy bows to Yamashita, then to the whole group and apologizes to everyone. Then rejoins the seminar.

He didn’t have anymore questions.

Later that night, Yamashita did a breaking demo using certain principles and techniques taught in the seminar. One of which was not squeezing your fist hard when punching someone. “Use proper technique, not squeeze fist hard.”

I swear to God, he did a punch break to a nasty bunch of cement slabs, shattering them.

Then he holds up the
hand he used in the break and slowly opens it.

A Japanese White Eye (a small bird) flew out of his hand and went up to the rafters.

There’s a lot of Japanese White Eyes out here. I see them nearly every day. They always make me think of Tadashi Yamashita.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yamashita could seriously rock.

We were training in a black belt seminar and Yamashita was explaining something we were about to do.

And there’s a big guy who’s shaking his head as Yamashita is talking.

Yamashita looks at him and says “You shake head. Why?”

The guy says, “Well, that might work with a lightweight, but it’s not going to work on a guy my size. There just isn’t any way.”

And I’m thinking to myself, “Dude, you signed up for this seminar, you obviously knew who he was. And now you’re being disrespectful and contradicting him? Are you nuts?”

Yamashita says, “Come, you show.”

So the guy walks up to him. And Yamashita is not a large man, the guy is dwarfing him.

They square off and the guy comes at him. Yamashita hits him with the technique that wouldn’t work against a big guy, a body shot so fricken fast all of us there went from hating the guy to honestly feeling sorry for him. The guy’s body is suddenly in shock. He can’t breathe in, he can’t move, he can’t even fall.

Finally he crumbles to the ground. Yamashita stands over him and says. “You show why not work. I wait.”

The guy eventually breathes in. And crawls away to the sidelines.

But to give the guy his due, about fifteen minutes later he asks permission to approach. Yamashita nods.
The guy bows to Yamashita, then to the whole group and apologizes to everyone. Then rejoins the seminar.

He didn’t have anymore questions.

Later that night, Yamashita did a breaking demo using certain principles and techniques taught in the seminar. One of which was not squeezing your fist hard when punching someone. “Use proper technique, not squeeze fist hard.”

I swear to God, he did a punch break to a nasty bunch of cement slabs, shattering them.

Then he holds up the
hand he used in the break and slowly opens it.

A Japanese White Eye (a small bird) flew out of his hand and went up to the rafters.

There’s a lot of Japanese White Eyes out here. I see them nearly every day. They always make me think of Tadashi Yamashita.

That is a great story!

 

[Sammy Naur]

"Real" jujutsu isn't "rolling". That is a very BJJ way of appreciating jujutsu.

I disagree.

Ukemi is the heart of all jujutsu, and that's why BJJ people use "roll" colloquially.

I can't think of anymore more "real" to jujutsu than falling well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm curious if anyone ever sparred or saw someone spar who only trained forms and basics(like kihon and 1 steps) . I know to be a fighter you need to fight to get better, but I've seen schools where they only train forms, kihon basics(punches, kicks, blocks etc) and 1 steps but not free sparring. How proficient could someone get from a routine like that? I'm just curious. Thanks.

I wasn't sure if this is what you are looking for but I'll put it.

I only train forms and basics.

Here is what I consider basics.
The beginner form for my system has more than 100 movesments and almost 100 unique techniques (if I remove repeating techniques). For me all of the techniques in this form are Basic Techniques.

It has taken me more than 10 years to be able to use 99% of these techniques. In 2025 I will be moving to my second form to try to learn how to use all of the techniques in that form. That form is also Basic and it has more than 100 movements. I don't expect it to take as long.

When I spar, I use the techniques from the form. This may not seem basic in other systems but for Jow Ga it 's basic. The reason it took me 10 years is because I basically had to learn and teach myself. I was taught the form, but I was never taught how to apply them in sparring. I had no formal teaching in that. If you have teacher or coach that will walk you through that process then the 10 years should probably take or 4. But once you understand how a fighting system tries to exploit another then things tend to move faster. For me Jow Ga vs Jow Ga didn't make sense and it actually made it more difficult for me to learn Kung Fu that way.

 

[Badhabits]

Yamashita could seriously rock.

We were training in a black belt seminar and Yamashita was explaining something we were about to do.

And there’s a big guy who’s shaking his head as Yamashita is talking.

Yamashita looks at him and says “You shake head. Why?”

The guy says, “Well, that might work with a lightweight, but it’s not going to work on a guy my size. There just isn’t any way.”

And I’m thinking to myself, “Dude, you signed up for this seminar, you obviously knew who he was. And now you’re being disrespectful and contradicting him? Are you nuts?”

Yamashita says, “Come, you show.”

So the guy walks up to him. And Yamashita is not a large man, the guy is dwarfing him.

They square off and the guy comes at him. Yamashita hits him with the technique that wouldn’t work against a big guy, a body shot so fricken fast all of us there went from hating the guy to honestly feeling sorry for him. The guy’s body is suddenly in shock. He can’t breathe in, he can’t move, he can’t even fall.

Finally he crumbles to the ground. Yamashita stands over him and says. “You show why not work. I wait.”

The guy eventually breathes in. And crawls away to the sidelines.

But to give the guy his due, about fifteen minutes later he asks permission to approach. Yamashita nods.
The guy bows to Yamashita, then to the whole group and apologizes to everyone. Then rejoins the seminar.

He didn’t have anymore questions.

Later that night, Yamashita did a breaking demo using certain principles and techniques taught in the seminar. One of which was not squeezing your fist hard when punching someone. “Use proper technique, not squeeze fist hard.”

I swear to God, he did a punch break to a nasty bunch of cement slabs, shattering them.

Then he holds up the
hand he used in the break and slowly opens it.

A Japanese White Eye (a small bird) flew out of his hand and went up to the rafters.

There’s a lot of Japanese White Eyes out here. I see them nearly every day. They always make me think of Tadashi Yamashita.

Now see, I started a thread awhile back asking everyone about punching with a loose fist like that and everyone basically said that was not how you do karate. Grrrr.

 

[Buka]

That is a great story!

Now see, I started a thread awhile back asking everyone about punching with a loose fist like that and everyone basically said that was not how you do karate. Grrrr.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Sure worked for Yamashita. One of things I remember about him was his hands. They were small and looked like a hand-models hands. For someone who can break just about anything, that’s highly unusual.

Most of the people I’ve trained under and with, say it’s all about technique and the alignment of the wrist and hitting with the front two knuckles, not about squeezing the hand tight. Worked for me, I’ve hurt just about everything on my body, but never hurt my hands. At least not in martial arts.

Spent a lot of time boxing, but wouldn’t go with how they said your hand should be when it hit the opponent’s head with a hook punch. I only hit with the front two knuckles.

In boxing they hit with any knuckle on a hook. That’s why in emergency room x-ray parlance it’s called a “boxers fracture.”

To me, that pretty much says it all.

But again, different strokes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Now see, I started a thread awhile back asking everyone about punching with a loose fist like that and everyone basically said that was not how you do karate. Grrrr.

You can punch with a loose fist but your fist structure and punch structure better be flawless. People are able to get away with it in training when hitting bads, but when you are fighting a resisting opponent, then your opponent's attempts to strike and grab you is going to change your fist and punch structure. Creating a fist is while make your punch and fist structure more resistant to changes caused by your opponent's incoming strikes, blocks, and grabs.

I usually do open hand strike strikes to explain Punch structure and fist structure. Would I do it in a fight? Heck no. I have never heard of the open fist punch done in a fight or in sparring. As a matter of fact. When you learn about fighting all teachers state to make a proper fist and none say to hit with the hand opened. Or at least known have said it to my knowledge.

My guess is when everyone says "That's not the way" that they are talking about the application of the punch in a fight. If there's footage of these people who can hit with an open fist, sparring or in competition, then you would probably see that they have a closed fist.

 

[Badhabits]

Fair enough. I was told that clenching the fist was to protect the person punching from injuring their self. But that it wasn't actually needed for an effective punch itself. I hit the makiwara with loose fist all the time, yes it is definitely about bone alignment, not clenching/squeezing. But can't say I've hit another person hard that way, so what y'all say makes perfect sense about things changing when bodies are in motion.
Man that old thread was frustrating lol.

 

[Buka]

Fair enough. I was told that clenching the fist was to protect the person punching from injuring their self. But that it wasn't actually needed for an effective punch itself. I hit the makiwara with loose fist all the time, yes it is definitely about bone alignment, not clenching/squeezing. But can't say I've hit another person hard that way, so what y'all say makes perfect sense about things changing when bodies are in motion.
Man that old thread was frustrating lol.

I used to demonstrate on my male students all the time, to show them. I’d let my fingers dangle down, my thumb loosely out of the way, and punch them on their pec with my front two knuckles and a straight wrist. I wouldn’t do it hard, just hard enough to show them you didn’t need a squeeze-tight fist to make someone say OW.

Then I’d have them do it to me and I said OW. Anything I showed my students by hitting them, I’d have them return the favor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can punch with a loose fist but your fist structure and punch structure better be flawless.

Have this ever happened to you? Your opponent throws a punch. You also throw a punch. Your fist and your opponent's fist meet face to face.

This has happened to me once.

 

[marvin8]

I used to demonstrate on my male students all the time, to show them. I’d let my fingers dangle down, my thumb loosely out of the way, and punch them on their pec with my front two knuckles and a straight wrist. I wouldn’t do it hard, just hard enough to show them you didn’t need a squeeze-tight fist to make someone say OW.

Then I’d have them do it to me and I said OW. Anything I showed my students by hitting them, I’d have them return the favor.

William CC Chen punches with a banana in his hand...