Anyone else use Yao Bu?

[Oily Dragon]

Northern and Southern Shaolin are really completely different styles, though of course everything has parallels when you're talking applying body mechanics.

Your post rocked except for this. Oh, thems fighting words...

"completely"? No. In fact, only Sith deal in absolutes....

 

[Oily Dragon]

I think Thulsa Doom (James Earl Jones) said it in the 1980 Conan the barbarian movie. ”Who among you is ready to embrace emptiness”

He was prepping his culties for war..invoking Set.

But Conan's emptiness is paramount, though. He lost Valeria to Vahalla and remains alone in the world, a king by his own hand. Worthless.

 

[Damien]

Your post rocked except for this. Oh, thems fighting words...

"completely"? No. In fact, only Sith deal in absolutes....

Hahaha, OK, you caught me. My real name is Darth Damien.

OK, not completely, most CMA has links, but northern and southern are different in flavour. It's pretty well established that the southern temple was a myth. That's not to say that there were not temples with fighting monks all over China, and that that they didn't have exchanges, but they weren't all linked to the one on Songshan.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Hahaha, OK, you caught me. My real name is Darth Damien.

OK, not completely, most CMA has links, but northern and southern are different in flavour. It's pretty well established that the southern temple was a myth. That's not to say that there were not temples with fighting monks all over China, and that that they didn't have exchanges, but they weren't all linked to the one on Songshan.

The southern temple is a metaphor and southern China is covered in Shaolin lore and influence. And Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Thailand, Japan...erm Great Britain, America, Brazil...

The stances are identical, so are the animal motifs. Bodhidharma, too.

Iron wire, dude.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No it was on another forum. I said about how I regularly used the technique (in a different way) in sparring and they were essentially like "no, its still not a strike, just because you use it as one, doesn't mean it is one"

I mean it's dumb because most Shaolin practitioners teach it as a strike! Some people have drank a little too much of the everything is a throw Kool-Aid. Sure somethings are, but doesn't mean they aren't other things too.

One guy even tried an appeal to authority to prove the application I was talking about was wrong, saying a highly respected master had told him it was a throw, and I was like yeah, nice try, but the guy who you're name dropping is the one that taught this specific application of this move!

Oh ok. yeah "It's still not a strike, just because you use it as one, doesn't mean it is one." Yep. that's dumb, and there are people who are like that. Even if Shaolin practitioners don't teach it that way, if you find another application of a technique that works, then it's valid.. One of the common things about Martial Arts is that sometimes techniques have more than application for the same movement. The correct answer that guy should have given should have been. "Oh I didn't know you could use it as a strike too."

There's no way to have a good martial arts discussion with people like that. They aren't willing to learn, so anything outside of their box doesn't exists.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh ok. yeah "It's still not a strike,

Which move are you talking about?

A hook punch can be a head lock. The difference is whether your try to create the 2nd contact point or not. If you have no intentin to create the 2nd contact point, a head lock is only a hook punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Which move are you talking about?

A hook punch can be a head lock. The difference is whether your try to create the 2nd contact point or not. If you have no intentin to create the 2nd contact point, a head lock is only a hook punch.

I was referring to what someone told Damien that a block could only be a block even when someone uses it as a strike. Some people only think that a technique/ movement can only be one thing and inky for one use. People who think like that are difficult to share martial arts with.

 

[Damien]

The southern temple is a metaphor and southern China is covered in Shaolin lore and influence. And Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Thailand, Japan...erm Great Britain, America, Brazil...

The stances are identical, so are the animal motifs. Bodhidharma, too.

Iron wire, dude.

The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.

Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.

The first half of this video talks about Shaolin lore in southern styles-

The same stances appear in a lot of styles, and the whole animal thing is massively over played with Northern Shaolin these days. Animal iconography is used to name some techniques and postures, but the whole crane, snake, monkey, leopard etc. styles, it's all just modern performance stuff. Old Northern Shaolin is not animal imitating at all. You see some forms called tiger something, but they are not imitating tigers. There's Monkey Rooster and Snake Qi Xing Quan too, but again they aren't specifically imitating these animals.

China has a long history with much movement of people. As such there are many shared cultural ideas and so you see similar things popping up all over the place in terms of naming.

But all that is the doctor of Archaeology talking. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any style is called, where it comes from, how it names things or anything, all that matters is that you have fun training it and it delivers what you are looking for out of a martial art, so I'll go shut up!

 

[Flying Crane]

The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.

Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.

The first half of this video talks about Shaolin lore in southern styles-

The same stances appear in a lot of styles, and the whole animal thing is massively over played with Northern Shaolin these days. Animal iconography is used to name some techniques and postures, but the whole crane, snake, monkey, leopard etc. styles, it's all just modern performance stuff. Old Northern Shaolin is not animal imitating at all. You see some forms called tiger something, but they are not imitating tigers. There's Monkey Rooster and Snake Qi Xing Quan too, but again they aren't specifically imitating these animals.

China has a long history with much movement of people. As such there are many shared cultural ideas and so you see similar things popping up all over the place in terms of naming.

But all that is the doctor of Archaeology talking. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any style is called, where it comes from, how it names things or anything, all that matters is that you have fun training it and it delivers what you are looking for out of a martial art, so I'll go shut up!

I agree with your assessment here about the animal styles. As someone who practices an animal style (Tibetan white crane) what parts of the system that might be considered imitative of the bird is minimal if any. Yes, there is an inspiration and an identity that was taken from the animal, and that simply influences how the method is trained. But it is not about trying to imitate the animal, nor to “become like” the animal. We most certainly do not run around flapping our arms like wings, nor fight from a one-legged stance, pecking with our fingertips. By far, our most common hand shape is a closed fist.

I sometimes come across websites where people try to connect all these imitative traits and qualities to the five animals and such. They come up with these odd (in my opinion) descriptions about what qualities a certain animal will instill in the practitioners, and how X animal is best when attacking against Y animal, but defends better vs. Z animal. It strikes me as utter nonsense, someone tried to make something mystical and deep, out of nothing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.

Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.

The first half of this video talks about Shaolin lore in southern styles-

The same stances appear in a lot of styles, and the whole animal thing is massively over played with Northern Shaolin these days. Animal iconography is used to name some techniques and postures, but the whole crane, snake, monkey, leopard etc. styles, it's all just modern performance stuff. Old Northern Shaolin is not animal imitating at all. You see some forms called tiger something, but they are not imitating tigers. There's Monkey Rooster and Snake Qi Xing Quan too, but again they aren't specifically imitating these animals.

China has a long history with much movement of people. As such there are many shared cultural ideas and so you see similar things popping up all over the place in terms of naming.

But all that is the doctor of Archaeology talking. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any style is called, where it comes from, how it names things or anything, all that matters is that you have fun training it and it delivers what you are looking for out of a martial art, so I'll go shut up!

I have heard so many conflicting stories on north and south, temple boxing, or otherwise. Sifu Woo had some funny things to say about it. He said the temples were just havens for bandits and criminals, and now is just a tourist trap with the monks having become performers of tricks and acrobatics. I have no actual knowledge of these things. They are inconsequential to my training. My system is a family system so we don’t have a ton of Shaolin influence. T.Y. Wong was one of my Sigungs training contemporaries, he had some Shaolin long fist.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm gonna block quote you but don't freak out.

I don't like to do this sort of thing (long block quote dissections of other people's words, I consider them a sort of Web STD), but I value your understanding of Shaolin concepts (regardless of what you've trained so far), so I'm trying to educate you and everyone else further, because trust me, almost everything I know about Shaolin I learned from training for real, and fact checking with actual research by scientists, including peer reviewed journals. I've done a lot of homework like you have, I just don't make videos.

Let's begin!

The whole of the country is covered in Shaolin lore. Shaolin was hugely famous and influential, certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that it is unlikely there is a direct link between what is commonly seen as southern Shaolin styles and Northern ones. That doesn't make it any less valid, or real. Things in Northern Shaolin came from elsewhere as well as being "home grown", and any practices they have almost certainly didn't come from Bodhidharma.

It's more complicated than even that, but there are many direct links in the form of individual people, what they trained, and what they became known for in history (vs. legend). The Chan tradition is not wholly separate from what most probably learned as "Northern Shaolin", and it's what I actually study/live/breathe. So when you say "practices" didn't come from Bodhidharma, that's a tough sell for me. I have entire books devoted to Bodhidharma scriptures, those inform my actual kung fu training, not limited to Shaolin stuff.

He was, though, retroactively associated with the temple many, many years after his death. The Shaolin were known to do this often. In the same way, certain weapons associated with Buddhism became the iconic Shaolin staff methods (which I also study, because there are few things more authentic).

One funny thing about Kung Fu in general, is that some of the people weren't real, might have been real, or were definitely real. This is also a problem with historical science, eh? Yet someone these transmissions reach us even in the 22nd century.

Pretty much all of the commonly accepted history of Shaolin is fake beyond the broadest of brush strokes when you actually get down to the real records, but these being myths doesn't invalidate the art.

"common" means the man on the street. So what they say about Shaolin, who cares. These are the same people late night talk show hosts flame on the streets because they answer "Canada" to questions like "What was the 50th state"?

A lot of what the common person believes about Shaolin is actually true (e.g., they have badass athletic skills, they fought in battles, the temple was an epicenter of Daoist and Buddhist martial arts, etc).

If you read any scholar (historian, etc) on Shaolin-based martial arts (Mahar, etc.) you'll find the same themes, and that a lot of the craziest sounding stuff is true.

The first half of this video talks about Shaolin lore in southern styles-

I'll watch the video for sure, but it might need its own thread. A lot of Youtube videos are full of BS, especially kung fu ones. You know it

I'm sure you'll agree, you have to do your own homework with this topic!

The same stances appear in a lot of styles, and the whole animal thing is massively over played with Northern Shaolin these days. Animal iconography is used to name some techniques and postures, but the whole crane, snake, monkey, leopard etc. styles, it's all just modern performance stuff. Old Northern Shaolin is not animal imitating at all. You see some forms called tiger something, but they are not imitating tigers. There's Monkey Rooster and Snake Qi Xing Quan too, but again they aren't specifically imitating these animals.

This part is not true. There is about 1500 years of Shaolin writing, the animals are all in there, dude. SO are the Wu Xing elements. It's all tied into TCM, too.

You might have discovered one of the major issues with the entire process of trying to learn Shaolin kung fu. It's NOT just about hitting things.

China has a long history with much movement of people. As such there are many shared cultural ideas and so you see similar things popping up all over the place in terms of naming.

But all that is the doctor of Archaeology talking. Ultimately it doesn't matter what any style is called, where it comes from, how it names things or anything, all that matters is that you have fun training it and it delivers what you are looking for out of a martial art, so I'll go shut up!

I see you, dude.

This is more a matter of anthropology. And according to Chan itself (or Daoism for that matteR) there is no "northern" or "southern" shaolin. It's all one diaspora, like the lotus flower (see: the Buddha)

Look into Leung Kwan, one of the most important Shaolin martial arts figures of the last 200 years. Wasn't even an ordained monk. Apparently once, he bumped into a kid and taught him all sorts of Shaolin technique that he himself had been given by hanging out with all sorts of Buddhist monks his whole life. That kid became, arguably, China's greatest martial arts hero. And it wasn't Ip Man.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I agree with your assessment here about the animal styles. As someone who practices an animal style (Tibetan white crane) what parts of the system that might be considered imitative of the bird is minimal if any. Yes, there is an inspiration and an identity that was taken from the animal, and that simply influences how the method is trained. But it is not about trying to imitate the animal, nor to “become like” the animal. We most certainly do not run around flapping our arms like wings, nor fight from a one-legged stance, pecking with our fingertips. By far, our most common hand shape is a closed fist.

I sometimes come across websites where people try to connect all these imitative traits and qualities to the five animals and such. They come up with these odd (in my opinion) descriptions about what qualities a certain animal will instill in the practitioners, and how X animal is best when attacking against Y animal, but defends better vs. Z animal. It strikes me as utter nonsense, someone tried to make something mystical and deep, out of nothing.

It's pretty simple: you train kung fu to become as efficient a human animal as possible. Humans fight like tigers all the time, but only if they're good at it.

"Watch other animals", because they don't think about this stuff all day, they just know themselves. They don't sit around getting fat all day posting about martial arts, for sure!

 

[Oily Dragon]

I have heard so many conflicting stories on north and south, temple boxing, or otherwise. Sifu Woo had some funny things to say about it. He said the temples were just havens for bandits and criminals, and now is just a tourist trap with the monks having become performers of tricks and acrobatics. I have no actual knowledge of these things. They are inconsequential to my training. My system is a family system so we don’t have a ton of Shaolin influence. T.Y. Wong was one of my Sigungs training contemporaries, he had some Shaolin long fist.

One of the first things I had to deal with when starting kung fu, was this issue. SO I made a rule, "fact check everything sifu says". My personal rate was not too shabby, YMMV.

Both the "everything comes from Shaolin!!!!", and the wrong things your Sifu Woo said (ie sifu opining). A lot of sifus get stuff wrong (please don't attack me, Wing Chun mafia).

The modern Shaolin Si is all of these things. Chan study center, martial arts physical fitness gym, 1500 year old historical museum, and tourist center (wouldn't call it a trap, everyone wants to go there). Kung Fu Disneyworld!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sifu Woo had some funny things to say about it. He said the temples were just havens for bandits and criminals

I have heard that to about those places being a place where criminals could seek safety.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One of the first things I had to deal with when starting kung fu, was this issue. SO I made a rule, "fact check everything sifu says". My personal rate was not too shabby, YMMV.

Both the "everything comes from Shaolin!!!!", and the wrong things your Sifu Woo said (ie sifu opining). A lot of sifus get stuff wrong (please don't attack me, Wing Chun mafia).

The modern Shaolin Si is all of these things. Chan study center, martial arts physical fitness gym, 1500 year old historical museum, and tourist center (wouldn't call it a trap, everyone wants to go there). Kung Fu Disneyworld!

We aren’t wing chun.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One of the first things I had to deal with when starting kung fu, was this issue. SO I made a rule, "fact check everything sifu says". My personal rate was not too shabby, YMMV.

Both the "everything comes from Shaolin!!!!", and the wrong things your Sifu Woo said (ie sifu opining). A lot of sifus get stuff wrong (please don't attack me, Wing Chun mafia).

The modern Shaolin Si is all of these things. Chan study center, martial arts physical fitness gym, 1500 year old historical museum, and tourist center (wouldn't call it a trap, everyone wants to go there). Kung Fu Disneyworld!

Read where I said I have no actual knowledge of these things.

 

[Oily Dragon]

We aren’t wing chun.

Well, few are.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well, few are.

I’m not sure what that means.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’m not sure what that means.

Your sifu was wrong.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well, few are.

I guess I wouldn’t be able to tell one from another to know which is the better.

Your sifu was wrong.

about what exactly?