ANY Fighting Style can work if you train it right.

[Red Sun]

Your misconception there is you think street fighting is not a game. I mean yes anything could happen. And you could get any fighter up there on that roof top.

But honestly you probably won't. What you get is still a pretty insular environment with your martial art adapting to handle a relatively small gene pool of fighters.

Which is essentially how these boxing tents can go from town to town and not get killed by every hard man that comes along. These street fighters are still working within their own confines. In this case are limited by their training and their competition.

Oh, man. Tonight we had a new guy come into the gym who said he'd been in a few 'rough and tumbles.' His jab > haymaker combo wasn't bad at all, i'd say he could beat the crap out of someone, but he was out of breath after A MINUTE of light sparring... and he wasn't even getting hit back...

 

[drop bear]

There's a reason that I didn't mention street fighting in my posts. That's because it's not the be all and end all of violence.

I actually believe in a progression of threat level where untrained thug is on the bottom rung and the top level is something like a squad of armed soldiers. Now very few ma schools ever go that far, but clearly you and I have different experiences if "rooftop" thugs (wherever that is) are all you feel ma are for.

I get where you're coming from but DropBear there are too many false assumptions to even go over. RBSD is b.s. because they don't spar?? Don't they? And even if that's true that means no other training method is ever effective?

I'm not disputing the effectiveness of boxing. I'm just saying that martial arts are built with different stuff in mind hence they do things differently.

For example most TMA are not prepared for grapplers because it's not a sensible way to fight. Your bjj streetfight vid confirms it because in every case people come over to the smooching couple and intervene. It's only luck that those interlopers weren't violent to the defenceless grappler.

Boxing should be where striking arts start. Remember my post about control and starting people off in heavy gloves and armour. Well that's where boxing comes in. Lessen the armour as their technique and control are refined and bring the student more out of the limits of the game and more into the refinements of the martial art.

From boxing, to kick boxing, to Thai boxing, to mma, to martial arts.

The roof top fights were where wing chun developed. That was chun's game pretty much. It developed to deal with a certain kind of situation. Just like boxing is developed to deal with a certain kind of situation.

Ok. lets look at your progression.


"From boxing, to kick boxing, to Thai boxing, to mma, to martial arts."

If someone worked through that I would be pretty confident what they did works.

If they get mauled in boxing. Then they need to put more work i to their system.

 

[drop bear]

I do talk about common reactions (that is common in competition approaches, too - you discuss some of the most common responses), but I also talk about what you do if that doesn't happen. Just yesterday, I was discussing the difference in approach if you get a skilled striker (like a boxer), as opposed to a common redneck (pretty common where I am), versus dealing with someone who has some experience with wrestling.

Yeah but what sort of boxer were you discussing. Or was it just some sort of generic boxer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but what sort of boxer were you discussing. Or was it just some sort of generic boxer.

Pretty much a generic boxer. I don't have the expertise to break down the subcategories - what I know I picked up from my first NGA instructor (a former Golden Gloves boxer). If I want to drive deeper, I need a boxer or boxing coach involved.

 

[jobo]

I can't quite agree with your point that a "street system" will only prepare you for one kind of fighter. What do you base that conclusion on?

I'm not even sure there is a street system, lots of people fight much the same way, that is badly, people who have developed an effective street system have done so over time, usually after learning from getting a kicking or two and have developed a method that suits their physical attributes. If they are strong they like to brawl if they are fast they like to punch and move or some such

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not even sure there is a street system, lots of people fight much the same way, that is badly, people who have developed an effective street system have done so over time, usually after learning from getting a kicking or two and have developed a method that suits their physical attributes. If they are strong they like to brawl if they are fast they like to punch and move or some such

I think DB was using the term "street system" to refer to those of us who train folks for self-defense "in the street" (our common term for the opposite of "in the dojo"). DB can correct me if I've misunderstood that.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not even sure there is a street system, lots of people fight much the same way, that is badly, people who have developed an effective street system have done so over time, usually after learning from getting a kicking or two and have developed a method that suits their physical attributes. If they are strong they like to brawl if they are fast they like to punch and move or some such

Yeah but street fighters don't really get out much either. You tend to face pretty much the same guys.

 

[drop bear]

I think DB was using the term "street system" to refer to those of us who train folks for self-defense "in the street" (our common term for the opposite of "in the dojo"). DB can correct me if I've misunderstood that.

Not really I am treating the street pretty much as a sport. It is definable and there are rules.

 

[DaveB]

Not really I am treating the street pretty much as a sport. It is definable and there are rules.

Such as what?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really I am treating the street pretty much as a sport. It is definable and there are rules.

Okay, how are you defining the common usages on the street, and what rules are you referring to?

 

[jobo]

Okay, how are you defining the common usages on the street, and what rules are you referring to?

the rules are, that you are allowed to kick people when they are on the floor, no rounds and weapons are allowed

 

[drop bear]

Okay, how are you defining the common usages on the street, and what rules are you referring to?

We have all the imaginary ones like.
You can't kick at the head. You can't go the the ground or hit with a closed fist and you can't duel with knives.

And then we have the physics ones like if you punch a guy in a certain manner they will stop punching you. If I move at an angle he then can only attack with certain angles and weapons.

And then we have the ritual rules like what sets a guy off and how they will act at that point.

Or how a criminal may set up an ambush

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We have all the imaginary ones like.
You can't kick at the head. You can't go the the ground or hit with a closed fist and you can't duel with knives.

Okay, but those, as you point out, don't actually exist.

And then we have the physics ones like if you punch a guy in a certain manner they will stop punching you. If I move at an angle he then can only attack with certain angles and weapons.

Okay, so basic mechanics - no different from what we deal with in the dojo or in competitions.

And then we have the ritual rules like what sets a guy off and how they will act at that point.

Or how a criminal may set up an ambush

Those are probably the ones that are notable for the street. There are some "rules" - not universal, but reasonably predictable.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, but those, as you point out, don't actually exist.


Okay, so basic mechanics - no different from what we deal with in the dojo or in competitions.


Those are probably the ones that are notable for the street. There are some "rules" - not universal, but reasonably predictable.

Regardless. If we are going to make a distinction of sport/street. then rules isn't really a good one.

I mean usually it is a way of promoting a methodology without ever having to support it with evidence. If you can't box then boxing isn't an applicable test.

Or as the Mc Map guy said on fight Quest. "Randy couture might beat me in the cage. But out here I would have the upper hand"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Regardless. If we are going to make a distinction of sport/street. then rules isn't really a good one.

I mean usually it is a way of promoting a methodology without ever having to support it with evidence. If you can't box then boxing isn't an applicable test.

Or as the Mc Map guy said on fight Quest. "Randy couture might beat me in the cage. But out here I would have the upper hand"

Rules do create a difference, though. An elite BJJ fighter won't do well under boxing rules unless he has also trained for that, or at least for something that creates some more similar (than BJJ competition) situations. And the reverse is true.

I think the "there's no rules in the street" argument gets overblown and over used, but it's a valid part of the difference. The lack of rules does make it different, though compared to some competition, it's a difference of degrees, not orders of magnitude.

 

[drop bear]

Rules do create a difference, though. An elite BJJ fighter won't do well under boxing rules unless he has also trained for that, or at least for something that creates some more similar (than BJJ competition) situations. And the reverse is true.

I think the "there's no rules in the street" argument gets overblown and over used, but it's a valid part of the difference. The lack of rules does make it different, though compared to some competition, it's a difference of degrees, not orders of magnitude.

But. And this is my point. You are not traveling the world fighting people. You have the limited amount of people who actually are going to attack you. So with a limited set of people to fight you still get a conformity.

So your attacks and defences that become part of your street system is still only relevent to a certain subset of fighting.

Which is a clever way of saying if you cant fight and they cant fight then who cares if you are are winning. You still are not very good. And if your system is designed to beat these guys who cant fight. Your sytem isn't very good.

Alternatively if you are competing on an international stage you probably are very good.

It has very little to do with boxers for example punching each other with gloves or whatever and therefore making it difficult for these people who cant fundimentally fight to use their whole systems.

They are basically poorer exponents of fighting.

 

[DaveB]

Those aren't rules, they are assumptions. Some may be bad assumptions, but they are just devices for teaching, like coming up with defences against common acts of violence (HAPV).

They certainly don't change the fact that boxing is a consequence of its rules.

I was sparring at my muay thai class with a guy who wasn't kicking, so we boxed. It was an entirely different game to fighting with people who could kick and knee if I weaved too low.

Its different again to mma where takedowns are a risk, which is different again to real life where a guy might pull a knife or have friends to back him up and where excessive force or lack of awareness of the environment might put you in jail.

I totally agree that mastery of these sports is one of the best ways to develop practical useable repeatable fighting ability, but this denial of the practical differences in the environment is so delusional that you sound no different to the traditionalists who are too deadly to spar.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But. And this is my point. You are not traveling the world fighting people. You have the limited amount of people who actually are going to attack you. So with a limited set of people to fight you still get a conformity.

So your attacks and defences that become part of your street system is still only relevent to a certain subset of fighting.

Which is a clever way of saying if you cant fight and they cant fight then who cares if you are are winning. You still are not very good. And if your system is designed to beat these guys who cant fight. Your sytem isn't very good.

Alternatively if you are competing on an international stage you probably are very good.

It has very little to do with boxers for example punching each other with gloves or whatever and therefore making it difficult for these people who cant fundimentally fight to use their whole systems.

They are basically poorer exponents of fighting.

I'm still not sure where this fit into the discussion, DB. Did I miss a swerve?

 

[drop bear]

I'm still not sure where this fit into the discussion, DB. Did I miss a swerve?

OK. So originally the idea is boxing ,in this case,is a manufactured environment. And so when you throw a system that is not meant to be chained down by rules into an environment that is. They are so hampered by this that they perform badly. This is not because they fundamentally perform badly. But because that is not the environment they are designed to perform in.

Imagine putting a shark in a running race with a turtle. The shark while being way more awesome. Looses due it being out of water.

But a street fighting system is also chained by the small amount of exposure that has been used to develop its system. So if I go out to the pub and bash ten guys. The chances of those ten guys being of an ability that developed me as a fighter is pretty slim.

Then when I then think I can win a boxing match because I am harry hardass down at the pub and get flogged.

It is more likely that the boxer beat me because he has a fundamentally better tool set.

This is also why we see styles like boxing do OK outside their manufactured environment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK. So originally the idea is boxing ,in this case,is a manufactured environment. And so when you throw a system that is not meant to be chained down by rules into an environment that is. They are so hampered by this that they perform badly. This is not because they fundamentally perform badly. But because that is not the environment they are designed to perform in.

Imagine putting a shark in a running race with a turtle. The shark while being way more awesome. Looses due it being out of water.

But a street fighting system is also chained by the small amount of exposure that has been used to develop its system. So if I go out to the pub and bash ten guys. The chances of those ten guys being of an ability that developed me as a fighter is pretty slim.

Then when I then think I can win a boxing match because I am harry hardass down at the pub and get flogged.

It is more likely that the boxer beat me because he has a fundamentally better tool set.

This is also why we see styles like boxing do OK outside their manufactured environment.

Ah, gotcha. Yes, a recurring problem.