ANY Fighting Style can work if you train it right.

[drop bear]

Boxing wasn't designed. It's a game that people trained to get really good at. Because it was accessible and popular and competetive you got a greater variety of competitors and a faster trial and error weeding process for what worked within the confines of the game.

Now just because I call it a game doesn't mean I don't respect it, I very much do. But it's a different animal to a martial art. There are a lot of plusses to boxing, in fact I think boxing should be considered basic training for all striking arts because it's the best training tool for using the hands. But the limits it has mean that martial arts represent an increase in sophistication and complexity.

The problem you see of TMAists getting beat up by boxers is a combination of those practitioners having forgotten the basics of combat on which boxing is based, and of the limitations of the arena in which the tmaists are fighting and most importantly the unevolved training that they are using.

The last is the most important point because through training exercises like boxing we put ourselves through that weeding process, but not for our techniques; we were out our misconceptions about combat and so relearn those basics.

Your misconception there is you think street fighting is not a game. I mean yes anything could happen. And you could get any fighter up there on that roof top.

But honestly you probably won't. What you get is still a pretty insular environment with your martial art adapting to handle a relatively small gene pool of fighters.

Which is essentially how these boxing tents can go from town to town and not get killed by every hard man that comes along. These street fighters are still working within their own confines. In this case are limited by their training and their competition.

 

[jobo]

That's not how skill works.

A skill or a level of skill is something you acquire. You don't get more of something by getting rid of something else (except space).

Rather than continuing down this nonsensical misrepresentation of my point why not just re-read the post?

It's pretty straightforward: you adapt to your environment. A boxing ring and the limitations of boxing rules constitute a different environment than the one wing chun was created for, so you adapt.

Nothing about magic or skill, just reasons why things change in a boxing match or mma bout or street fight etc.

well yes you do, i stopped trying to use my chatting up girls skills whilst playing poker, i was immediately more skilled at poker.
i stopped using my dancing skill when trying to pick up girls and got better at picking up girls,

some times less is more and that particularly applies to wing chun

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the gloves cut out the trapping etal, as soon as you lose all the nonsense techniques they are more skilled

The first half is what he said. The second half is your invention.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Rather than continuing down this nonsensical misrepresentation of my point why not just re-read the post?

Jobo doesn't do that.

 

[drop bear]

Boxing wasn't designed. It's a game that people trained to get really good at. Because it was accessible and popular and competetive you got a greater variety of competitors and a faster trial and error weeding process for what worked within the confines of the game.

Now just because I call it a game doesn't mean I don't respect it, I very much do. But it's a different animal to a martial art. There are a lot of plusses to boxing, in fact I think boxing should be considered basic training for all striking arts because it's the best training tool for using the hands. But the limits it has mean that martial arts represent an increase in sophistication and complexity.

The problem you see of TMAists getting beat up by boxers is a combination of those practitioners having forgotten the basics of combat on which boxing is based, and of the limitations of the arena in which the tmaists are fighting and most importantly the unevolved training that they are using.

The last is the most important point because through training exercises like boxing we put ourselves through that weeding process, but not for our techniques; we were out our misconceptions about combat and so relearn those basics which in turn help us understand how to adapt to new environments which will inform how we train for those environments... and round and round it goes.

Training is key. Training is all.

The game concept gets really complicated. Lets see if I can expand on it.

Ok one of the ways the street fighing as a game is shown is in the training.

Have you ever seen the riturals of violence? this has come about to address what are essentially rules of street fights. Have you noticed that self defence instruction really only tends to adress one style of fighter? Again we have this indication of a closed system.

A street system is as much a victim to the concept of a closed system as a sport. And where a sport will generally train you to deal with a variety of systems a street system will generally let you only deal with one.

Street fighting as a game with commonalities is as relevant to boxing as a game with comonalities. Rules, or whatever.

So we have seen people adopt this game idea to street fighting successfully. Eg. Boxing.

wrestling.

Bjj.

Tkd.

Each person has their game with their rules and the street fighter does whatever the hell he wants. Yet the game still works under these real street conditions. The idea that there is some sort of non comparable method to street fighting specifically is kind of bunk. And I am sorry about that because it is going to be a bit hard to swallow if you have belived the RSBD rhetoric.

Now this moves towards you concept that all styles work. But that is still bunk. There is more than one way to fight is nothing like all styles work. Somone out there is still training yellow bamboo.

 

[drop bear]

And all of the above hinges on this.

Ok this is a game. But they are knocked out for real. That game punch with rules, with a ref, with padding and warning and warm ups and ring girls and walkout music and all the things that made these fights different to street fights.

Sill ended one guys ability to attack the other guy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What we call the paper rock sissors effect. Or mohumid ali's rope a dope where his system defeated a better indiviual. (or at leats what is popularly believed)


Now we can assume all these different systems kind of even out. Or even out depending on the user. But there is no reason for that. Some will but some will just be more efficient across the board. At this point we can look at styles like systema. Whith whatever notion makes them think this works.

I had my wife translate the first part of that (she's Ukrainian). What a horrible miss-application of principles from one point to another (he starts by talking about the relaxation/tension pattern of using a hammer, then applies that to empty hand).

Anyway, agreed. There are some "even out" areas between styles. But it's not everything. Some things actually work better than other things, and some styles have more of the "other things".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Boxers are generally better than your average rooftop thug though.

So if we are going to wax lyrical about design. Wing Chun wasn't designed to handle anywhere near the complexity of a boxer.

And so people understand what I am presenting in this video. These towns dont produce soft men.
Fred Brophy, the last boxing tent showman - ABC North West Qld - Australian Broadcasting Corporation

I think it's fair to say that there are some arts that haven't adapted to account for modern western boxing. I can't authoritatively say whether WC is one of those, but lack of adaptation is a risk for any art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Boxing wasn't designed. It's a game that people trained to get really good at. Because it was accessible and popular and competetive you got a greater variety of competitors and a faster trial and error weeding process for what worked within the confines of the game.

Now just because I call it a game doesn't mean I don't respect it, I very much do. But it's a different animal to a martial art. There are a lot of plusses to boxing, in fact I think boxing should be considered basic training for all striking arts because it's the best training tool for using the hands. But the limits it has mean that martial arts represent an increase in sophistication and complexity.

The problem you see of TMAists getting beat up by boxers is a combination of those practitioners having forgotten the basics of combat on which boxing is based, and of the limitations of the arena in which the tmaists are fighting and most importantly the unevolved training that they are using.

The last is the most important point because through training exercises like boxing we put ourselves through that weeding process, but not for our techniques; we were out our misconceptions about combat and so relearn those basics which in turn help us understand how to adapt to new environments which will inform how we train for those environments... and round and round it goes.

Training is key. Training is all.

The "game" of boxing wasn't designed, but the modern style that dominates in boxing was. Over time, some very good, analytical people designed an approach that works far more often than other approaches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well yes you do, i stopped trying to use my chatting up girls skills whilst playing poker, i was immediately more skilled at poker.
i stopped using my dancing skill when trying to pick up girls and got better at picking up girls,

some times less is more and that particularly applies to wing chun

And this applies to the post in question, precisely how?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The game concept gets really complicated. Lets see if I can expand on it.

Ok one of the ways the street fighing as a game is shown is in the training.

Have you ever seen the riturals of violence? this has come about to address what are essentially rules of street fights. Have you noticed that self defence instruction really only tends to adress one style of fighter? Again we have this indication of a closed system.

A street system is as much a victim to the concept of a closed system as a sport. And where a sport will generally train you to deal with a variety of systems a street system will generally let you only deal with one.

Street fighting as a game with commonalities is as relevant to boxing as a game with comonalities. Rules, or whatever.

So we have seen people adopt this game idea to street fighting successfully. Eg. Boxing.

wrestling.

Bjj.

Tkd.

Each person has their game with their rules and the street fighter does whatever the hell he wants. Yet the game still works under these real street conditions. The idea that there is some sort of non comparable method to street fighting specifically is kind of bunk. And I am sorry about that because it is going to be a bit hard to swallow if you have belived the RSBD rhetoric.

Now this moves towards you concept that all styles work. But that is still bunk. There is more than one way to fight is nothing like all styles work. Somone out there is still training yellow bamboo.

I can't quite agree with your point that a "street system" will only prepare you for one kind of fighter. What do you base that conclusion on?

 

[drop bear]

I think it's fair to say that there are some arts that haven't adapted to account for modern western boxing. I can't authoritatively say whether WC is one of those, but lack of adaptation is a risk for any art.

You don't know what you are going to face in boxing. Is could be any tactic by any fighter. Or it could be any tactic by the same fighter at different times.

It is like those wing chun vs videos. But with real people.

 

[drop bear]

I can't quite agree with your point that a "street system" will only prepare you for one kind of fighter. What do you base that conclusion on?

That I have never seen evidence of self defence comprehensively dealing with different styles of fighting.

I have seen evidence of self defence instuctors telling people what a street fighter will probably do.

And look I have done street systems. And that has been my experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't know what you are going to face in boxing. Is could be any tactic by any fighter. Or it could be any tactic by the same fighter at different times.

It is like those wing chun vs videos. But with real people.

Boxing has some commonalities among _most_ fighters, so there's some predictability. Of course, you still have to be good enough to recognize and deal with it, even if they fit into the common mold. Not easy with most boxers.

 

[drop bear]

And this applies to the post in question, precisely how?

It is about efficiency.

He is describing bruce lees clasical mess.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That I have never seen evidence of self defence comprehensively dealing with different styles of fighting.

I have seen evidence of self defence instuctors telling people what a street fighter will probably do.

And look I have done street systems. And that has been my experience.

I do talk about common reactions (that is common in competition approaches, too - you discuss some of the most common responses), but I also talk about what you do if that doesn't happen. Just yesterday, I was discussing the difference in approach if you get a skilled striker (like a boxer), as opposed to a common redneck (pretty common where I am), versus dealing with someone who has some experience with wrestling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is about efficiency.

He is describing bruce lees clasical mess.

I'm not sure that's what he's talking about - he seems to be drawing an equivalency between muscle fibre training/development and combining flirting with other activities.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure that's what he's talking about - he seems to be drawing an equivalency between muscle fibre training/development and combining flirting with other activities.

There is a whole bunch of things in martial arts that would be cool if you can pull them off. And there is a whole bunch of basics you resort to when you don't want your head punched in.

This is pretty much why the cover system exists. It is nowhere near as cool as trapping or counter punching but it is super safety. For me street fights is about super safety. And like poker. You flirt with the girls after you win the hand.

Trapping does work in boxing gloves. To the point that trapping works at all. which is a bit. I mean there are places you can use it. But a whole defence system of trapping is ambitious.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a whole bunch of things in martial arts that would be cool if you can pull them off. And there is a whole bunch of basics you resort to when you don't want your head punched in.

This is pretty much why the cover system exists. It is nowhere near as cool as trapping or counter punching but it is super safety. For me street fights is about super safety. And like poker. You flirt with the girls after you win the hand.

Trapping does work in boxing gloves. To the point that trapping works at all. which is a bit. I mean there are places you can use it. But a whole defence system of trapping is ambitious.

I agree that a whole system based on trapping is making a dangerous assumption. And cover should be (IMO) part of every complete system. It's like of like a hip throw or a single-leg takedown. It's some basic stuff, and should be in there, if the system is intended to be even kinda complete.

 

[DaveB]

And all of the above hinges on this.

Ok this is a game. But they are knocked out for real. That game punch with rules, with a ref, with padding and warning and warm ups and ring girls and walkout music and all the things that made these fights different to street fights.

Still ended one guys ability to attack the other guy.

There's a reason that I didn't mention street fighting in my posts. That's because it's not the be all and end all of violence.

I actually believe in a progression of threat level where untrained thug is on the bottom rung and the top level is something like a squad of armed soldiers. Now very few ma schools ever go that far, but clearly you and I have different experiences if "rooftop" thugs (wherever that is) are all you feel ma are for.

I get where you're coming from but DropBear there are too many false assumptions to even go over. RBSD is b.s. because they don't spar?? Don't they? And even if that's true that means no other training method is ever effective?

I'm not disputing the effectiveness of boxing. I'm just saying that martial arts are built with different stuff in mind hence they do things differently.

For example most TMA are not prepared for grapplers because it's not a sensible way to fight. Your bjj streetfight vid confirms it because in every case people come over to the smooching couple and intervene. It's only luck that those interlopers weren't violent to the defenceless grappler.

Boxing should be where striking arts start. Remember my post about control and starting people off in heavy gloves and armour. Well that's where boxing comes in. Lessen the armour as their technique and control are refined and bring the student more out of the limits of the game and more into the refinements of the martial art.

From boxing, to kick boxing, to Thai boxing, to mma, to martial arts.