Anti-grappling.

[Danny T]

Ask and ye shall receive

Man said he is 26 and 0.
His strength; "Great JuJitsu Skills" and "Very Quick for a man my size"
From his performance in this video I can understand anyone questioning his statements.

And Shawn Obasi says he's a Wing Chun stylist when he's trained in MMA extensively.

So by that standard any BJJer who has extensive MMA training is no longer a BJJer?

I have training in MMA and I train MMA fighters; that doesn't mean I'm no longer a wing chunner. I also have training with GJJ through Ricardio Murgel and Pedro Sauer, and Allen Baker (also a wing chunner). Have BJJ training with Jean Jacque Machado, Rey Diego, and Erik Paulson (shooto & catch wrestling also). That doesn't mean I'm no longer a wing chunner. I train in and am an instructor in Muay Thai that doesn't mean I am not a wing chunner.

WT exponents refuse to test this stuff in any meaningful way.

Just as there are BJJ exponents that refuse to understand and test other things in any real meaningful way (like knife). And as per my above statement there are many WC people who do. It seems just not in your limited knowledge of the wing chun world.

One GJJ person who has embraced learning some wc, fma, and muay thai is Pedro Sauer who has been training with my WC Sifu as well as Guro Dan Inosanto. He has realized his understand of many aspects of the martial arts was limited and is adding that to his skill sets. Will he no longer be a GJJist?

Does wing chun have all the answers to all things - no.
Neither does BJJ. How about let's help bolster rather than criticize. BJJ is awesome, for what it was designed for. Muay Thai is awesome, for what it has been developed for. Boxing is awesome, for what it has developed into. BJJ came from Judo and had a long time to develop through trial and error. Something the Gracie's acknowledge. WC is a dynamic system meaning it is constantly researching, polishing, and learning. Some of us have not attempted to redevelop the wheel so to speak while others have taken a different approach. At least they trying and researching. In time they will either learn or struggle. With that, there are a lot of things in Judo not in BJJ, why? There are a lot of things in BJJ not in Judo, why? Judo came from Jujitsu and there are some huge differences from JJJ to Judo to BJJ. A lot of what is in JJJ is in Karate that you also discredit yet BJJ is but an offshoot of JJJ. All of the arts are good for something and are lacking for other things. Acknowledge the good and help strengthen the weak rather than criticize.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Fair comment.

I'll just clarify my pointless remark:

Firstly it's absolutely pointless for ME to discuss the efficacy of the techniques as I'm a WT student not a master, and have no specific knowledge of grappling/ground fighting.

Secondly I'm of the opinion that it's fairly pointless for anyone to discuss them as it invariably ends up as a "well If you do this I'll do that" "no you couldn't" or "that wouldn't work" type of argument, which really solves nothing.

I'd love to see the anti-grappling stuff properly tested as it were, and it's success or failure, but as it hasn't happened yet the jury is still out for me and will remain so until I either see it properly tested or actually test it myself.

You guys can of course continue to discuss it's efficacy all you want, and no doubt will

Fair enough. Actual testing is always preferable to declarations of opinion about what would or would not work.

In the spirit of said testing, anyone who is in the Lexington KY area is welcome to come by 4 Seasons MMA and try to punch me in the groin while I am mounted on you. I won't even wear a cup. It will be scientific research. (I do get to hit back.)

I don't get into challenge matches. There are tons of guys (and probably some ladies) from any style you can name who could kick my *** in a fight. However I am confident enough that this is a poor tactic from that position that it would be worth taking a few nut punches to find out I was wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

So by that standard any BJJer who has extensive MMA training is no longer a BJJer?

Extensive MMA experience while participating in a MMA match? No, I would not consider you Bjj. At that point you're MMA.

Just as there are BJJ exponents that refuse to understand and test other things in any real meaningful way (like knife).

That's quite a false equivalency you have there.

WC is a dynamic system meaning it is constantly researching, polishing, and learning.

But not testing. That's why we have crap like "anti-grappling".

 

[Danny T]

That's quite a false equivalency you have there.

??? Just stated the wc people I work with do test in a meaningful way. It is you who refuse to accept it. There are some who don't; I agree. There exponents in BJJ that don't test their knife work in the same manner as some don't test their 'anti-grappling' as you and they call it. Why is it different, because they are BJJ and of course all BJJ test everything they do in a meaningful manner even when it's not? Get over yourself. BJJ is good but it has it's limitations as well. And some BJJ exponent's knife work is bad. You present yourself as not able or unwilling to acknowledge or accept it. Your passion for BJJ is admirable but your stubborn lack of accepting that it has its limitations is not.

But not testing. That's why we have crap like "anti-grappling".

Well for us testing is a part of the learning. We research, drill, test, repeat the drill and testing, evaluate. Do it Often.
Others may not.

I also recommend you get with a decent knifer and test your knife defensive skills. Make certain you acknowledge every point of pressure from the point and/or blade edge is a puncture or cut. Do it without the gi, use a marker for safety and acknowledge all the cuts as bloody tissue and muscle damage. Your arms and legs become very weak, your grip becomes as that of a child. Abdomen and chest punctures, lung, heart, kidney damage, neck damage. Strength and cardio wane in seconds.

 

[Steve]

Just as there are BJJ exponents that refuse to understand and test other things in any real meaningful way (like knife).

Just want to comment quickly on this statement. I kind of see where you're going, and it's true that sparring such as Tony Dismukes has described can be less common in some BJJ schools. A key distinction here, however, is that I (a pretty typical BJJ guy, I think) understand and acknowledge the holes in my training. I can either be okay with these holes or address them only because I have acknowledged them. If I were to choose to address weapons, for example, I'd probably look at Arnis or maybe Krav Maga. I wouldn't go to BJJ.

Point isn't that BJJ is bad, or WC is bad, or anything else. Every style has holes of some kind.

The concern for me isn't that WC has a gap. It's the approach to filling that gap that is of concern. WC proponents seem to have circled the wagons and tried to invent a solution to fighting 'the grappler' without the collaboration of competent grapplesr. The thing is, at least in the techniques I've seen displayed, they haven't actually developed them anywhere near an actual "grappler." The result is what you'd expect.

Before anyone gives me the, "Well, I train with plenty of grapplers" spiel, I believe you. I'm talking about the videos I've seen. The "experts" who are sharing techniques. Those guys. Not you.

 

[Danny T]

Just want to comment quickly on this statement. I kind of see where you're going, and it's true that sparring such as Tony Dismukes has described can be less common in some BJJ schools. A key distinction here, however, is that I (a pretty typical BJJ guy, I think) understand and acknowledge the holes in my training. I can either be okay with these holes or address them only because I have acknowledged them. If I were to choose to address weapons, for example, I'd probably look at Arnis or maybe Krav Maga. I wouldn't go to BJJ.

Point isn't that BJJ is bad, or WC is bad, or anything else. Every style has holes of some kind.

The concern for me isn't that WC has a gap. It's the approach to filling that gap that is of concern. WC proponents seem to have circled the wagons and tried to invent a solution to fighting 'the grappler' without the collaboration of competent grapplesr. The thing is, at least in the techniques I've seen displayed, they haven't actually developed them anywhere near an actual "grappler." The result is what you'd expect.

Before anyone gives me the, "Well, I train with plenty of grapplers" spiel, I believe you. I'm talking about the videos I've seen. The "experts" who are sharing techniques. Those guys. Not you.

Agreed, there is a large WC family and their exponents who have done so and their grappling skills are terrible, just as there are many WC exponents who have actually gone out and are training with grapplers. My point is the criticism is being made by BJJer’s who will not acknowledge the same is true by some BJJ exponents about holes in their training. There is a large BJJ family who have instructions and videos on knife defense that is terrible. These are also experts but are instructing bladed tactics that will get you hurt badly and when that was brought up it is defended as "well it's better that 'anti-grappling'".

They both need to acknowledge the lack of understanding and skill; and get expert training in the respected fields.

 

[Steve]

Agreed, there is a large WC family and their exponents who have done so and their grappling skills are terrible, just as there are many WC exponents who have actually gone out and are training with grapplers. My point is the criticism is being made by BJJer’s who will not acknowledge the same is true by some BJJ exponents about holes in their training. There is a large BJJ family who have instructions and videos on knife defense that is terrible. These are also experts but are instructing bladed tactics that will get you hurt badly and when that was brought up it is defended as "well it's better that 'anti-grappling'".

They both need to acknowledge the lack of understanding and skill; and get expert training in the respected fields.

I would agree that both should acknowledge holes. I think, and maybe it's just my homerism, that sport arts are far more willing to do this than non sport arts. I think if you started a thread about knife fighting in Bjj, you'd be pleasantly surprised were you to start that thread.


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[drop bear]

One of the issues with anti grappling as a concept is where are you getting your grapplers from? So even with the correct fundamentals (and I don't know Stefan Fischer,s system) you will hit a point where to progress in skill the other guy really needs to know how to take you down.

Same with knife by the way. To properly defend the other guy should know how to properly stab you.

 

[drop bear]

I would agree that both should acknowledge holes. I think, and maybe it's just my homerism, that sport arts are far more willing to do this than non sport arts. I think if you started a thread about knife fighting in Bjj, you'd be pleasantly surprised were you to start that thread.


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The concept of resisted training with no theoretical out would come into play here. Does this work? Let's test and see. If it doesn't there has to be a hole in the system.

 

[Hanzou]

??? Just stated the wc people I work with do test in a meaningful way. It is you who refuse to accept it. There are some who don't; I agree. There exponents in BJJ that don't test their knife work in the same manner as some don't test their 'anti-grappling' as you and they call it. Why is it different, because they are BJJ and of course all BJJ test everything they do in a meaningful manner even when it's not? Get over yourself. BJJ is good but it has it's limitations as well. And some BJJ exponent's knife work is bad. You present yourself as not able or unwilling to acknowledge or accept it. Your passion for BJJ is admirable but your stubborn lack of accepting that it has its limitations is not.

Its different because no one in Bjj is calling Knife defense "anti-knife fighting" and making crazy claims about its effectiveness. Bjj knife defense is your standard unarmed MA knife defense stuff. Karate, Kung Fu, TKD, and other arts have similar basic forms of knife self defense. None of them make effectiveness claims on the level that WC anti-grappling does.

Well for us testing is a part of the learning. We research, drill, test, repeat the drill and testing, evaluate. Do it Often.
Others may not.

Sorry, but that isn't what I'm seeing out of WC anti-grappling.

I also recommend you get with a decent knifer and test your knife defensive skills. Make certain you acknowledge every point of pressure from the point and/or blade edge is a puncture or cut. Do it without the gi, use a marker for safety and acknowledge all the cuts as bloody tissue and muscle damage. Your arms and legs become very weak, your grip becomes as that of a child. Abdomen and chest punctures, lung, heart, kidney damage, neck damage. Strength and cardio wane in seconds.

In the other thread I stated plainly that I would seek out a MA more specialized in knife use and knife defense if I ever desired that type of training. I wouldn't watch Arnis or Silat videos and combine them with Bjj movements and proclaim that I now have the ability to defeat skilled knife fighters.

As Steve pointed out, every art has a hole in their training. WC stylists have decided to plug their training hole with a silly fighting method, and surrounded that silly method with even sillier claims of effectiveness and history.

Oh and btw, I'm not bagging on WC, I'm bagging on anti-grappling. I don't view anti-grappling as a legitimate part of WC kung fu.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't see a difference between a Wing Chun coming up with anti-grappling and BJJ coming up with anti-striking.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see a difference between a Wing Chun coming up with anti-grappling and BJJ coming up with anti-striking.

Grappling kind of nullifies striking a bit more than striking nullifies grappling. That was kind of the big thing about bjj back in the day.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, this looks like fun…

i read the the article and much of the theory and the ideas make sense. When he starts getting into some of the actual specifics of the implementation ... not so much. Telling someone who is mounted to attack the groin is unlikely to end well even against an untrained opponent. Against a skilled opponent it is going to get you hurt badly.

i'm all for stand-up martial artists knowing how to stop takedowns, escape bad positions on the ground, and regain the feet. You don't have to be an expert grappler to do that, although you do need to understand a subset of the grappling curriculum. There are even principles within Wing Chun which could probably help to develop those skills. I just don't have faith, based on what this guy has written, that he has a good program for this purpose.

Out of interest, Tony, can you highlight in the article where there are any specifics? I didn't note any on my repeated readings…

We should applaud them for creating an ineffective system that is untested against what it was supposedly designed to defend against?

Well, that's the question… what is it designed to defend against? I have yet to see any indication that it's actually meant to deal with what you think it is…

What makes all this even more dubious is the fact that its not like its hard to find a grappler to test this stuff on. It's not even hard to go to your local Bjj/MMA school and test this yourself. WT exponents refuse to test this stuff in any meaningful way. That's what makes this even worse.

What are you basing this idea on? I've seen you talk about the lack of testing a fair bit… how involved in the development of this system were you?

Well since you bought it up, how about you find a video of some bad Bjj. I'm sure its out there somewhere right?

If not, think about why that is exactly.

Ah, you do make such enticing offers… okay, first let's look at why "bad BJJ" can be an interesting thing to try to find. One major reason is that the vast, vast majority of clips are BJJ operating in their own context… one where they are in control of the environment, in a competitive context (which is what it's geared towards, both in development and in training), and so on. But you asked for some bad videos? Okay...

I call this one "how to get died with sharp things real quick"…

This one is "I'm on holiday, and want to shave off those last two pounds in my stomach"…

This is "Aliveness is everything til you're dead!"

I think the rationale is perfectly logical. It has everything to do with the efficacy of the actual techniques. It's the application of the philosophy that raises some questions.
That you think it's pointless to get into the efficacy of the techniques is insight into the ongoing miscommunication. You guys are speaking philosophically. Others, including me, distinguish between the theory and the application.

I think a lot of this could really work well if trained with people who are competent grapplers. I've said so several times, and so have others, including hanzou. I also believe that the application of WC philosophies and principles would look different if tested against competent grapplers. I've pointed out some very concerning techniques demonstrated in other threads.

Thing is, and I know I've said this a few times already (here and elsewhere), is that what it's really designed to go against? All the indications are, frankly, that it's not… so perhaps if the BJJ guys didn't think it was about them, it might start to make a bit more sense…

The fact that its been around for over 20 years, and no one has tested it, should speak volumes to anyone paying attention.

Once more, where did you get the idea of it not being tested? Do you think that testing only means going up against BJJ in a competition?

i have no idea what (if any) Mr. Rodriguez's BJJ qualifications are, but I will note that Mr. Obasi used what I would consider to be decent "anti-grappling" technique.

Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that Mr. Obasi has trained BJJ as well as Wing Chun.

Would you class that as "anti-grappling"? Or just "grappling"?

Fair enough. Actual testing is always preferable to declarations of opinion about what would or would not work.

In the spirit of said testing, anyone who is in the Lexington KY area is welcome to come by 4 Seasons MMA and try to punch me in the groin while I am mounted on you. I won't even wear a cup. It will be scientific research. (I do get to hit back.)

I don't get into challenge matches. There are tons of guys (and probably some ladies) from any style you can name who could kick my *** in a fight. However I am confident enough that this is a poor tactic from that position that it would be worth taking a few nut punches to find out I was wrong.

I haven't seen any reference to striking the groin against a mount… it's been brought up once or twice… but I haven't seen the original source… anything you can link?

That's quite a false equivalency you have there.

Actually, no, it's not.

But not testing. That's why we have crap like "anti-grappling".

Er… you might want to remind yourself of the "art-bashing" rules… and again, who said it wasn't (and isn't currently being) tested?

Just want to comment quickly on this statement. I kind of see where you're going, and it's true that sparring such as Tony Dismukes has described can be less common in some BJJ schools. A key distinction here, however, is that I (a pretty typical BJJ guy, I think) understand and acknowledge the holes in my training. I can either be okay with these holes or address them only because I have acknowledged them. If I were to choose to address weapons, for example, I'd probably look at Arnis or maybe Krav Maga. I wouldn't go to BJJ.

I get where you're coming from, Steve, but it doesn't really work that way… for one thing, someone attending a Wing Chun school is more likely looking for a more "complete" package than someone attending a BJJ school… so really, what you would do doesn't quite register here.

Point isn't that BJJ is bad, or WC is bad, or anything else. Every style has holes of some kind.

"Holes" is not the way I would describe it.

The concern for me isn't that WC has a gap. It's the approach to filling that gap that is of concern. WC proponents seem to have circled the wagons and tried to invent a solution to fighting 'the grappler' without the collaboration of competent grapplesr. The thing is, at least in the techniques I've seen displayed, they haven't actually developed them anywhere near an actual "grappler." The result is what you'd expect.

Yeah… I really think you're thinking they're doing something they're not… the idea isn't to "beat grapplers", it's how to avoid ending up in a grappling engagement (in a street encounter… which means, broadly, not a skilled competitor/BJJ guy)… that's the idea of "anti-grappling"… it's how to avoid being in a position where you have to rely on something that they know they don't do… deliberately. It really seems like the name is tripping you guys up… "anti-grappling" does not equal "anti-grapplers"… and, seriously, "grappling" does not equal BJJ… there's a hell of a lot more to it than what you guys do, frankly.

Before anyone gives me the, "Well, I train with plenty of grapplers" spiel, I believe you. I'm talking about the videos I've seen. The "experts" who are sharing techniques. Those guys. Not you.

Hmm…

I would agree that both should acknowledge holes. I think, and maybe it's just my homerism, that sport arts are far more willing to do this than non sport arts. I think if you started a thread about knife fighting in Bjj, you'd be pleasantly surprised were you to start that thread.

Honestly, Steve, I disagree. To be blunt, sports systems are one of the least willing…

One of the issues with anti grappling as a concept is where are you getting your grapplers from? So even with the correct fundamentals (and I don't know Stefan Fischer,s system) you will hit a point where to progress in skill the other guy really needs to know how to take you down.

Yeah… still looking at the wrong intention, I feel…

Same with knife by the way. To properly defend the other guy should know how to properly stab you.

What is "knowing how to stab properly"? Kali? Takeuchi Ryu? Systema? Aikido? Amok? Boatman Knife Combat? Any of the above? None of the above? Something different altogether?

Are you aware of the differences? Or why they're different?

Its different because no one in Bjj is calling Knife defense "anti-knife fighting" and making crazy claims about its effectiveness. Bjj knife defense is your standard unarmed MA knife defense stuff. Karate, Kung Fu, TKD, and other arts have similar basic forms of knife self defense. None of them make effectiveness claims on the level that WC anti-grappling does.

Well, the very claim that they have feasible knife defence I'd consider "crazy"… the Rener and Rorion show above is another case in point… but are you saying that your issue really is just with the name? Really?

And, again, where does Wing Chun's "anti-grappling" make any kind of claim the way you suggest here?

Sorry, but that isn't what I'm seeing out of WC anti-grappling.

And, again, you're looking for the wrong things.

In the other thread I stated plainly that I would seek out a MA more specialized in knife use and knife defense if I ever desired that type of training. I wouldn't watch Arnis or Silat videos and combine them with Bjj movements and proclaim that I now have the ability to defeat skilled knife fighters.

Yeah… again, I'd like to see where such claims are being made.

As Steve pointed out, every art has a hole in their training. WC stylists have decided to plug their training hole with a silly fighting method, and surrounded that silly method with even sillier claims of effectiveness and history.

"Art-bashing"… careful…

Oh and btw, I'm not bagging on WC, I'm bagging on anti-grappling. I don't view anti-grappling as a legitimate part of WC kung fu.

Yes, you are. Whether or not you regard it as "legitimate" is really besides the point.

Grappling kind of nullifies striking a bit more than striking nullifies grappling. That was kind of the big thing about bjj back in the day.

Ha!

No. That was the (false) marketing back in the day…

 

[RTKDCMB]

After closer inspection of that video I have determined that it was in jest. Just another example of Poe's law in action.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't see a difference between a Wing Chun coming up with anti-grappling and BJJ coming up with anti-striking.

What is "anti-striking"?

Also there is striking in Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, that's the question… what is it designed to defend against? I have yet to see any indication that it's actually meant to deal with what you think it is…

Wouldn't something called "anti-grappling" be designed to defend against "Grapplers"?

What are you basing this idea on?

The fact that anti-grappling isn't effective against grappling.

I've seen you talk about the lack of testing a fair bit… how involved in the development of this system were you?

What does that even mean?

Ah, you do make such enticing offers… okay, first let's look at why "bad BJJ" can be an interesting thing to try to find. One major reason is that the vast, vast majority of clips are BJJ operating in their own context… one where they are in control of the environment, in a competitive context (which is what it's geared towards, both in development and in training), and so on. But you asked for some bad videos? Okay...

I call this one "how to get died with sharp things real quick"…

A video of two guys joking around.

This one is "I'm on holiday, and want to shave off those last two pounds in my stomach"…

This is "Aliveness is everything til you're dead!"

Both of which are no different than your typical MA knife defense you see in other systems.

Thing is, and I know I've said this a few times already (here and elsewhere), is that what it's really designed to go against? All the indications are, frankly, that it's not… so perhaps if the BJJ guys didn't think it was about them, it might start to make a bit more sense…

Again, are we to assume that "anti-grappling" isn't meant to defend against grapplers or people who grapple?

but are you saying that your issue really is just with the name? Really?

My issue is with the techniques applied.

And, again, where does Wing Chun's "anti-grappling" make any kind of claim the way you suggest here?

Right from the horse's mouth;

In this new and spectacular work, Sifu Victor Gutierrez addresses the techniques of Chi Gerk (sticky legs) and Anti-Grappling for advanced Wing Tsun’ers.

He examines how to deal with advanced grapplers, who know how to implement the softness of adhering to us, while looking for the empty space to move into and exert maximum pressure.

This video will uncover the secrets of how to defend against grapplers by using the most advanced techniques and effective Wing Tsun

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Victor-Gutierrez-Wing-Tsun-DVD-09-p/vg09.htm

Emin Boztepe takes on the grappler. In this DVD, he demonstrates effective techniques for countering anything a grappler might use. Bonus escrima techniques are again included.

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Emin-Boztepe-Combat-Martial-Arts-DVD-Vol-3-p/eb03.htm

Steve Cottrell is a Wing Chun Instructor who used his art for government counter terrorist and special operations units.
Teaching the art since 1983, he brings unparalleled experience and expertise to the study of Wing Chun.

This Video Series teaches how to win as a grappler closes, engages, or attempts a takedown! Not for "Sport Competition"!
DVD 1- Grappler Beating Basics Essential Info! Train to dominate opponents using timing attacks, counter grabs, winning in the clench and much more
DVD 2- Grappler Beating in Action Wing Chun vs. the Grappler! How to win as a grappler closes, engages or attempts a takedown. Again, Not For Sport Competition!

http://www.ajtvp.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=54

Master Cottrell in action;

How about you tell us how a system called "anti-grappling" (or counter grappling) isn't claiming to be an effective defense against grappling.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Out of interest, Tony, can you highlight in the article where there are any specifics? I didn't note any on my repeated readings…

I haven't seen any reference to striking the groin against a mount… it's been brought up once or twice… but I haven't seen the original source… anything you can link?

From K-Man's link, 6th paragraph: "Attacking the groin, which is not allowed in MMA, on the street, is one of the first places to attack when being pinned from a mount position."

Would you class that as "anti-grappling"? Or just "grappling"?

Yes.

Mr. Obasi repeatedly stuffed his opponent's takedown attempts in order to stay standing and finish the fight using his WC striking skills. That's the "anti-grappling" we're talking about, yes?

Of course (as has been pointed out) doing so requires a subset of actual grappling skills.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

After closer inspection of that video I have determined that it was in jest. Just another example of Poe's law in action.

Yeah, to further clarify, it's a couple of BJJers satirizing some of the developments in modern sport BJJ competition which involve guard pulling, intricate grip setups, and techniques which work within the rules but would be suicide in a street fight. It only makes sense if you know what they're making fun of.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't see a difference between a Wing Chun coming up with anti-grappling and BJJ coming up with anti-striking.

"Anti-striking" isn't a BJJ term, but I think I know what you mean.

The difference would be that the Gracie family developed and tested their "anti-striking" (if you choose to call it that) via hundreds of bare-knuckle challenge matches and street fights with actual strikers of all varieties and in many cases recorded the matches on video for posterity. They didn't armchair theorize based on poor assumptions about how a boxer, karateka, or kung fu exponent would attack.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Grappling kind of nullifies striking a bit more than striking nullifies grappling. That was kind of the big thing about bjj back in the day.

That depends on the grappler and striker, it's a bit hard to grapple when you are knocked unconscious.