Another wake up for Chinese Martial Arts

[Paul_D]

As close as MMA comes to a real fight, there is still a gap. MMA doesn't train you to fight multiple opponents, or getting jumped on from behind, or being faced with weapons. You think someone on the street isn't going to kick you in the balls or gouge your eyes just because you're an MMA fighter? You think they aren't going to kick your head in when you're on the ground?

Or sucker punched

 

[Steve]

So how does a person train for "alive combat"? This is the biggest problem, in that no matter the training, there will always be a difference between sparring and a "real fight". We can close the gap but there is still a big difference. We have a similar problem when it comes to training first aid. You can practice CPR on a dummy all you like but you will never know what it's truly like to do CPR properly until you do it on a real person.

Yes!!! The key is to understand that you cannot train for something you can't do. You can't replace experience with more training. You can, however, train for things that will help, provided you are self aware.

 

[DanT]

Joke dude, hence the smiley to indicate as such.

 

[jobo]

By doing it on a real person. Look at mma, those guys train to fight, so they are good at fighting. Sure, the level of risk of personal injury elevates as the training approaches realistic, but nothing in life comes without sacrifice.

well no, that's not a logical conclusion, some of them are very good, some are terrible,are after getting knocked about for a few weeks give it up. There is no proof that getting punched a lot makes you a better fighter, a fighter with brain damage perhaps, but not better

 

[jobo]

Yes!!! The key is to understand that you cannot train for something you can't do. You can't replace experience with more training. You can, however, train for things that will help, provided you are self aware.

yes you can they do it all the time, they don't let paramedics' practice on real people, they don't set fire an,aircraft so they can practise evacuation, nor do they have a real riot to train officers or a real war to train troops

 

[Midnight-shadow]

yes you can they do it all the time, they don't let paramedics' practice on real people, they don't set fire an,aircraft so they can practise evacuation, nor do they have a real riot to train officers or a real war to train troops

Ask any paramedic you like, and they will tell you that there was a big difference between training and having to do CPR on a real person for the first time. No amount of training can fully prepare you for the real thing. Yes, the training dummies they use are very sophisticated but they still don't come close to the real thing. This is not just about the physical actions, but the mental aspect too. Being placed into a real life situation for the first time can play havoc on your mind, and a lot of people freeze up or at the very least don't act optimally the first time, no matter how much training they have had.

As someone who has performed CPR on a person in a real life situation, I can tell you this for a fact. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AS TRAINING.

 

[drop bear]

So, the follow-up question to that is, if we need the fighting aspect of kungfu what needs to happen to get it back? Should we abolish points sparring and only do full contact?

There needs to be a vehicle for fighters to get opportunities to fight. Otherwise they will just go do boxing or something.

 

[drop bear]

well no, that's not a logical conclusion, some of them are very good, some are terrible,are after getting knocked about for a few weeks give it up. There is no proof that getting punched a lot makes you a better fighter, a fighter with brain damage perhaps, but not better

The point is at least you know who is good and who isn't.

 

[jobo]

Ask any paramedic you like, and they will tell you that there was a big difference between training and having to do CPR on a real person for the first time. No amount of training can fully prepare you for the real thing. Yes, the training dummies they use are very sophisticated but they still don't come close to the real thing. This is not just about the physical actions, but the mental aspect too. Being placed into a real life situation for the first time can play havoc on your mind, and a lot of people freeze up or at the very least don't act optimally the first time, no matter how much training they have had.

As someone who has performed CPR on a person in a real life situation, I can tell you this for a fact. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AS TRAINING.

and that's why they train by repeating it over and over again until it become instinctive, some 22 years after giving up kung fu, I was attacked by a guy 30 years younger than me, the training kicked in and I hit the heal of my hand under his chin , snapping his head back and launching him across the room, I was amazed, I didn't know i remembered that, an action I had never done other than in slow motion , yet there it was programmed in just for such an emergency

 

[jobo]

The point is at least you know who is good and who isn't.

well yea, you know if your good or not, but how does it help the ones who are not good to become good fighter, which is what was claimed, it doesn't does it, other wise every kid who has been beaten up would be a good fighter

 

[Midnight-shadow]

and that's why they train by repeating it over and over again until it become instinctive, some 22 years after giving up kung fu, I was attacked by a guy 30 years younger than me, the training kicked in and I hit the heal of my hand under his chin , snapping his head back and launching him across the room, I was amazed, I didn't know i remembered that, an action I had never done other than in slow motion , yet there it was programmed in just for such an emergency

I'm just going to leave this clip up here to demonstrate my point:

and this one too:

 

[drop bear]

well yea, you know if your good or not, but how does it help the ones who are not good to become good fighter, which is what was claimed, it doesn't does it, other wise every kid who has been beaten up would be a good fighter

They can find a good fighter to go train with. And In the same method that made them a good fighter.

Which has got to help them in some way.

We have turned bad fighters at least into some sort of fighter. Hard contact played a role in that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, the follow-up question to that is, if we need the fighting aspect of kungfu what needs to happen to get it back? Should we abolish points sparring and only do full contact?

you don't have to do full contact, but the contact has to be enough where strikes can be interrupted. A tap on my head will not prevent my strike from landing. However a good kick to my head will. The solution is more about intensity of the contact. It has to be hard enough to affect your opponent but not so hard where doctor visits are needed.

 

[JR 137]

There are terrible pianos though.

Just because the individual and the training is a factor does not mean the system isn't a factor.

If I train the wrong technique diligently. That does not make it the right technique.

If you're training the wrong technique diligently under realistic pressure, you'll realize pretty quickly that it's the wrong technique.

For example... Let's say I train the jab diligently. I throw a ton of them at a heavy bag everyday. Once I have someone who actually knows how to shoot a double leg takedown shoot in, and I throw that jab, I find out pretty quickly that that jab doesn't counter an honest double leg takedown very well. It works quite well at other things, but not that thing.

Then I think my diligently trained knee strike will be an effective counter. Same guy shoots in, and on my back I go.

The problem isn't the techniques. The problem is a lack of effective sparring. That lack of effective sparring turns into a hypothetical strategy that sounds great on paper - a quick and hard knee to the head that's already coming at your knees sounds like a no brainer - but just flat out sucks.

It's the poor training methods and lack of realistic strategy/application that sinks a system, not the actual techniques. This assumes that the system isn't doing stuff that's so far out there. I'm sure there are some that do completely asinine techniques, but they're really the exception.

 

[Steve]

yes you can they do it all the time, they don't let paramedics' practice on real people, they don't set fire an,aircraft so they can practise evacuation, nor do they have a real riot to train officers or a real war to train troops

Paramedics do eventually perform cpr on real people. Fire fighter do eventually fight fires. Training gets you to the edge of competence. But you can't train to expertise, unless training is itself the skill you're trying to learn.

 

[drop bear]

If you're training the wrong technique diligently under realistic pressure, you'll realize pretty quickly that it's the wrong technique.

For example... Let's say I train the jab diligently. I throw a ton of them at a heavy bag everyday. Once I have someone who actually knows how to shoot a double leg takedown shoot in, and I throw that jab, I find out pretty quickly that that jab doesn't counter an honest double leg takedown very well. It works quite well at other things, but not that thing.

Then I think my diligently trained knee strike will be an effective counter. Same guy shoots in, and on my back I go.

The problem isn't the techniques. The problem is a lack of effective sparring. That lack of effective sparring turns into a hypothetical strategy that sounds great on paper - a quick and hard knee to the head that's already coming at your knees sounds like a no brainer - but just flat out sucks.

It's the poor training methods and lack of realistic strategy/application that sinks a system, not the actual techniques. This assumes that the system isn't doing stuff that's so far out there. I'm sure there are some that do completely asinine stuff, but they're really the exception.

There is a lot more to the dynamic than that.

Capoeira is a good example. Not so realistic techniques applied in a realistic way. But if everyone is doing it...........

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you're training the wrong technique diligently under realistic pressure, you'll realize pretty quickly that it's the wrong technique.

For example... Let's say I train the jab diligently. I throw a ton of them at a heavy bag everyday. Once I have someone who actually knows how to shoot a double leg takedown shoot in, and I throw that jab, I find out pretty quickly that that jab doesn't counter an honest double leg takedown very well. It works quite well at other things, but not that thing.

Then I think my diligently trained knee strike will be an effective counter. Same guy shoots in, and on my back I go.

The problem isn't the techniques. The problem is a lack of effective sparring. That lack of effective sparring turns into a hypothetical strategy that sounds great on paper - a quick and hard knee to the head that's already coming at your knees sounds like a no brainer - but just flat out sucks.

It's the poor training methods and lack of realistic strategy/application that sinks a system, not the actual techniques. This assumes that the system isn't doing stuff that's so far out there. I'm sure there are some that do completely asinine techniques, but they're really the exception.

Not necessarily. If the people around you are doing the same bad technique, you may still assume it's good technique. And even if this works, there can be a lot of guess and check, which can waste time.

A huge example of this is collegiate fencing. Incredibly competitive, people fencing 2+ hours a day within their school, and on weekends against other schools. Still saw a ton of people who had bad technique. They would be told by their coach that the technique itself is fine, they just weren't applying it properly...no, it was directly bad technique. Plenty of them never learned the lesson, and those that did would scramble on their own to get better, because the coach was incapable of teaching them properly.

 

[jobo]

Paramedics do eventually perform cpr on real people. Fire fighter do eventually fight fires. Training gets you to the edge of competence. But you can't train to expertise, unless training is itself the skill you're trying to learn.

moving the goal posts, the claim was you cant train people to deal extremely stressful, even life or death situation and you can. The training may not be,successful or it may, but in employment situations the selection process should have got rid of the flappers

 

[Steve]

moving the goal posts, the claim was you cant train people to deal extremely stressful, even life or death situation and you can. The training may not be,successful or it may, but in employment situations the selection process should have got rid of the flappers

I didn't claim that. I claimed you can't train to expertise. Training only gets you so far. Some want desperately to believe that martial arts training is different from every other human activity in this regard.

I've read a lot of books and web material on how to distill liquor and make whiskey. Intellectually, I understand the process. But in order to go past "well educated novice" I will at some point need a still and some practical experience. No amount of training will replace actual experience.

I roast coffee. I know more about roasting coffee than anyone who has never done it. I know what it smells like and tastes like, and I know several ways to screw it up that aren't in the books. And the more I do it, the better I'll get. training got me out of the gate, but nothing replaces doing.

Except when it comes to self defense. That's special.

 

[Martial D]

well no, that's not a logical conclusion, some of them are very good, some are terrible,are after getting knocked about for a few weeks give it up. There is no proof that getting punched a lot makes you a better fighter, a fighter with brain damage perhaps, but not better

The proof is that people without fighting experience always lose against those that do have it. I don't care how many years someone has been perfecting their forms or kata, they won't know a thing about fighting if they've never been in that situation.

There are a lot of factors to deal with. Fear, adrenaline, apprehension, pain, knowing how to feint, how and when to land those strikes you have been practicing so dillegently against someone that is doing literally everything they can to stop you..Just a few off the top of my head.

If you believe you are trained to fight but have never actually used it in hard sparring or a fight, you are actually more vulnerable to the world than if you have never trained at all.