Another wake up for Chinese Martial Arts

[Ironbear24]

Look at a knockdown fighter from Kyokushin vs a point fighter. Both are training karate. Both are using more or less the same punches and kicks.

No we aren't.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No we aren't.

Ironbear if I ever catch you doing point sparring punches, then I'm going to personally come visit you and slap you until you come back to your senses. By the way you'll need to pay for my plan ticket as well. lol.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

No we aren't.

I'm sure you're using the same techniques, but in a different way with a different delivery. It reminds me of a story my instructor told me about how people fight the way they train. There was a points-based karate fighter, very well trained and successful in points karate competitions. Then one day some tough guy in a bar started giving him grief about doing points-based fighting, so the karate guy immediately turned around and fired off a load of techniques on the tough guy. Unfortunately for the karate guy, he did those techniques exactly as he was trained which was with pinpoint accuracy and no power at all. After being tapped by all those techniques, the tough guy threw 1 punch at the karate guy and knocked him down.

 

[JR 137]

No we aren't.

Sure we are. Both schools I've trained at are Kyokushin offshoots. I've done a handful of point fighting tournaments, and a few knockdown tournaments. A roundhouse is a roundhouse. A front kick is a front kick. A reverse punch is a reverse punch.

The difference in technique in knockdown is you're not tapping; you're putting power behind it and following through (or at least you are if you want to have any chance at winning).

The techniques are the same, they way they're trained and applied is different.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure you're using the same techniques, but in a different way with a different delivery. It reminds me of a story my instructor told me about how people fight the way they train. There was a points-based karate fighter, very well trained and successful in points karate competitions. Then one day some tough guy in a bar started giving him grief about doing points-based fighting, so the karate guy immediately turned around and fired off a load of techniques on the tough guy. Unfortunately for the karate guy, he did those techniques exactly as he was trained which was with pinpoint accuracy and no power at all. After being tapped by all those techniques, the tough guy threw 1 punch at the karate guy and knocked him down.

I first heard a similar story from my teacher in the mid 1980s and I've heard it a few times since then from different people. I am sure that story, or some variant, has been floating around for a lot longer than that, and that makes me suspect it is a karate urban myth that never actually happened.

I appreciate the lesson the story is meant to convey, but if the event that the story is supposedly based on never actually happened, then it suggests that people are really more adaptable than that. People can train with some kind of control and restraint, and still be able to switch gears and put on the pressure when needed.

The lesson this myth is meant to convey is valid, but it becomes a problem when people use it to promote their own training methods over those of others. We train effectively, and people who don't do it our way, simply suck. Then it is just propaganda.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I first heard a similar story from my teacher in the mid 1980s and I've heard it a few times since then from different people. I am sure that story, or some variant, has been floating around for a lot longer than that, and that makes me suspect it is a karate urban myth that never actually happened.

I appreciate the lesson the story is meant to convey, but if the event that the story is supposedly based on never actually happened, then it suggests that people are really more adaptable than that. People can train with some kind of control and restraint, and still be able to switch gears and put on the pressure when needed.

The lesson this myth is meant to convey is valid, but it becomes a problem when people use it to promote their own training methods over those of others. We train effectively, and people who don't do it our way, simply suck. Then it is just propaganda.

Reminds me of a story from way back in my TKD days.... and I was there so.... TKD was going to become an Olympic sport and some in class were very interested in that aspect. So they approached Mr. Kim about protective gear....he looked at them and laughed, saying "there is no protective gear in a fight". It took him awhile, but he finally gave in and got some chest protector from Korea. I tried it once, and only once. I got hit and it spread the pain over the entire body, frankly I would have rather gotten hit without the protector. Looking at it more closely I discovered it was basically bamboo staves covered with a bit of thin padding.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I first heard a similar story from my teacher in the mid 1980s and I've heard it a few times since then from different people. I am sure that story, or some variant, has been floating around for a lot longer than that, and that makes me suspect it is a karate urban myth that never actually happened.

I appreciate the lesson the story is meant to convey, but if the event that the story is supposedly based on never actually happened, then it suggests that people are really more adaptable than that. People can train with some kind of control and restraint, and still be able to switch gears and put on the pressure when needed.

The lesson this myth is meant to convey is valid, but it becomes a problem when people use it to promote their own training methods over those of others. We train effectively, and people who don't do it our way, simply suck. Then it is just propaganda.

You're right that people can adapt to different situations, but I have a question. Let's say you have 2 people, person A and person B. Person A trains every day for full contact fighting where they aren't limited by how hard they can deliver their strikes. Person B on the other hand trains every day for points sparring where the emphasis is on delivering strikes as lightly as possible. If person A went into a points sparring match, and person B went into a full contact match, which one would be more successful. In other words, is it easier to increase your strength at a time of need, or decrease it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You're right that people can adapt to different situations, but I have a question. Let's say you have 2 people, person A and person B. Person A trains every day for full contact fighting where they aren't limited by how hard they can deliver their strikes. Person B on the other hand trains every day for points sparring where the emphasis is on delivering strikes as lightly as possible. If person A went into a points sparring match, and person B went into a full contact match, which one would be more successful. In other words, is it easier to increase your strength at a time of need, or decrease it?

Against someone else who trains in that setting? I don't think either of them would be very successful. They don't know the techniques/tactics needed, while their opponent probably does.

 

[Flying Crane]

You're right that people can adapt to different situations, but I have a question. Let's say you have 2 people, person A and person B. Person A trains every day for full contact fighting where they aren't limited by how hard they can deliver their strikes. Person B on the other hand trains every day for points sparring where the emphasis is on delivering strikes as lightly as possible. If person A went into a points sparring match, and person B went into a full contact match, which one would be more successful. In other words, is it easier to increase your strength at a time of need, or decrease it?

Why does any of that matter? People do what they are interested in doing.

The karate urban myth is that a point fighter or someone who doesn't do much, or any, full contact fighting, cannot defend himself. Switching up a competition setting as you describe here, is irrelevant. It is an inappropriate yardstick.

 

[drop bear]

Why does any of that matter? People do what they are interested in doing.

The karate urban myth is that a point fighter or someone who doesn't do much, or any, full contact fighting, cannot defend himself. Switching up a competition setting as you describe here, is irrelevant. It is an inappropriate yardstick.

Because if someone who hasn't been in a fight trains in karate. Asks his instructor If he will learn to defend himself and gets "Stuffed if I know. I haven't been in a fight either."

It could be pretty disheartening.

So it may be an inappropriate yard stick. But it is the best one we have.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ironbear if I ever catch you doing point sparring punches, then I'm going to personally come visit you and slap you until you come back to your senses. By the way you'll need to pay for my plan ticket as well. lol.

I would be honored to be brought back to reality . Though my wallet might be ko'd lol.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm sure you're using the same techniques, but in a different way with a different delivery.

Then it isn't the same. When I punch for "real" I shoot in very close then deliver the punch, my body weight is going forward as it is thrown, I am aiming far behind the surface of the skin. Same goes for kicks too.

If I am doing point sparring and I do these methods without putting power behind them, then I will get tapped a bunch of times on my in. For point sparring I have to use entirety different methods, more like using the full length of the limbs while keeping my body as furthest away possible.