Another Hangul question

[IcemanSK]

Our Japanese/Okinawan brethern sometimes refer to their rank as Shodan, Nidan, etc.

In Korean, are the dan ranks refered to likewise (Ildan, Eedan, Samdan, etc). I've never heard it used that way. Is it so, or another way?

 

[Laurentkd]

Our Japanese/Okinawan brethern sometimes refer to their rank as Shodan, Nidan, etc.

In Korean, are the dan ranks refered to likewise (Ildan, Eedan, Samdan, etc). I've never heard it used that way. Is it so, or another way?

I have always heard and used these. The one exception would be first Dan, which is generally referred to as Cho Dan. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will jump in on this, but I believe it's translation is something more like "beginner" rather than first. But Yi Dan, Sam Dan, Sah Dan, etc. are all prevalent in my experience.

 

[howard]

In Korean, are the dan ranks refered to likewise (Ildan, Eedan, Samdan, etc). I've never heard it used that way. Is it so, or another way?

Yes, they are referred to that way (in our kwan at least, and I think it's pretty common across kwans and arts).

The only "exception" would be 1st dan, which we call Cho dan more commonly than Il dan. One of our Korean instructors told me that the term "Chodan" has a Chinese origin.

LF, can you explain the Il dan / Cho dan distinction?

 

[Last Fearner]

Yes, they are referred to that way (in our kwan at least, and I think it's pretty common across kwans and arts).

The only "exception" would be 1st dan, which we call Cho dan more commonly than Il dan. One of our Korean instructors told me that the term "Chodan" has a Chinese origin.

LF, can you explain the Il dan / Cho dan distinction?

I will try!
Also, I invite others who know the etymology better than I to join in.

Yes, Iceman, it does go as you guessed!

1st Degree 일단 Il Dan
2nd Degree 이단 Yi Dan (or Ee Dan)
3rd Degree 삼단 Sam Dan
4th Degree 사단 Sa Dan
5th Degree 오단 Oh Dan
6th Degree 육단 Yuk Dan
7th Degree 칠단 Chil Dan
8th Degree 팔단 Pal Dan
9th Degree 구단 Gu Dan
[The honorary 10th Degree is Sip Dan 십단 - pronounced like "sheep Dahn"]

(spelling variations occur due to early phonetic interpretations)

Many schools do still use the "Cho Dan" 초단 which is accurate, but not really in the same sequence as numbering "1st through 9th." The Korean word "Cho" probably has Chinese origins, but is used in many Hangeukmal words. It means "the beginning" or "early stage" of something.
Here are some examples from Dong-Ah's Dictionary:

초가을 Cho Ka Eul - Early Autumn; the beginning of Fall. (Harvest time)

초고 Cho Ko - A rough copy; a draft

초기 Cho Ki - The early days [period]; the first stage; an early stage.

초대 Cho Dae - The first generation; the founder; the originator

초등 Cho Deung - Elementary; Primary

초보 Cho Bo - The first steps; the first stage; elements; rudiments; the beginning; the start.

Also as in 기초 "Ki Cho" - Base or foundation - like in Kicho form.

초단 Cho Dan - can mean the "first grade" which means the first level, or beginning stages of the Black Belt.

The rank itself is called "IL DAN."

Here's a funny little story about the term "Shodan vs. Chodan." When I was about to become a 1st Degree Black Belt in 1978, I was talking to a special advisor in the ATA who was filling us in on the terminology. Many instructors had requested English words to be embroidered on their Black Belt such as "1st Degree." This advisor had said that the correct term was "Shodan" which meant "First Degree" (as it turns out that is the Japanese term). When my instructor asked me what I wanted embroidered on my new Black Belt, I said "Shodan." I still have this belt today.

A short while later, I was attending a testing in Lansing, Michigan, at the headquarters school of the highest ranking American in the ATA at that time, 5th Dan, ATA Vice-President Robert Allemier (He is currently ATA Chief Master, 8th Dan and is in Texas). During the after hours socializing, I was standing next to ATA Founder, 9th Dan GM H.U. Lee. After a while of conversing, he looked down at my belt and said in a thick Korean accent, "Sho Dan, is that your name?" I looked at him rather puzzled wondering why a Korean did not recognize his own language. I replied, "No sir, it's my rank," to which he nodded and acknowledged with a polite "Oh, I see."

I think that many Korean Taekwondo schools, following the end of the Japanese occupation in 1945 (some of which also taught Yudo as a grappling comparison to Judo), used the Korean term "Cho Dan" because it is similar sounding to the Japanese "Sho Dan" which means "First Degree."

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[MSUTKD]

The difference between Sho Dan and Cho Dan is just cultural pronunciation. Both of these terms are the same and come from the Chinese characters (初段). The pronunciation is different in Chinese, Japanese and Korean but the meaning is exactly the same, “cut from cloth” or a pattern. A pattern is the beginning and model of what is to be made.

The Koreans stopped using Cho Dan for reasons that are often debated and now use Il Dan (壹段) on black belt certificates. The character (壹) is just the formal character for first.

ron

 

[IcemanSK]

I appreciate the wisdom that you've all given me, here. Thank you so much.:asian:

 

[Dave Leverich]

I second and third that. Many thanks for these threads, I find my own knowledge growing, and of course making me ask yet more questions. Fascinating language there, I can't wait to be able to actually become fluent.

 

[Dave Leverich]

You know...

이/Yi/Ee

I always see the surname 'Lee' written as such in Hangul.
Yet it would see that pronunciation would have it begin with the ri-ul character?

 

[howard]

You know...

이/Yi/Ee

I always see the surname 'Lee' written as such in Hangul.
Yet it would see that pronunciation would have it begin with the ri-ul character?

Hi Dave,

Good point.

Here's what the Koreans have told me. When your family name in hangul begins with a vowel sound, you are required to add a consonant to the beginning of your name when you get your passport. For example, the family name of the head of our kwan in Korea is Im (&#51076. But in English, he uses Lim. There is an instructor with the same surname, but in English he uses Rim.

It's the same with 이.

Perhaps LF can comment...

 

[Last Fearner]

Perhaps LF can comment...

I can always comment.... it doesn't mean that I'll have anything intelligent to add though! :lol:

I did not know about the passport thing. I know many foreign families change their name when coming to America. My family's last name was different in Germany, and has been translated many different ways by immigrants.

One thing that I have been aware of is the flexibility when choosing "Ee" or "Yi" for the Korean character " 이."

First of all, in Korean language, a word, or even a separate syllable can not be written as starting with a vowel. If it does start with a vowel, the circular character "ㅇ" must be placed in front of it as a kind of silent consonant.
Examples:

ㅏ = a which is pronounced "ah." As a lead vowel, it is written as 아

ㅓ = eo which is pronounced "uh" or "aw." As a lead vowel, it is written as 여

ㅗ = o which is pronounced "oh." As a lead vowel, it is written as 오

ㅜ = u which is pronounced "ew." As a lead vowel, it is written as 우

Each of the above vowels can be modified to add a "y" sound in front of it by adding another short line off from the main line.

ㅏ becomes ㅑ thus "a" becomes "ya" and is written as 야

ㅓ becomes ㅕ thus "eo" becomes "yeo" and is written as 여

ㅗ becomes ㅛ thus "o" becomes "yo" and is written as 요

ㅜ becomes ㅠ thus "u" becomes "yu" and is written as 유


However, the vowel for the letter "I" which is pronounced like a long "E" is written as a straight vertical line with no short lines to the side.

ㅣ = "I" which is pronounced "Ee." As a lead vowel, it is written as 이

There is no way to make this a "Yi" because if you add the double lines to the side, it becomes a "yeo" vowel 여 as shown above (ㅓ becomes &#12629

Thus, "I," "Ee" and "Yi" are often used interchangeably for the 이 character.

"Rhee" and Lee, or Li usually are used in translation of 리 since the "r" and "l" consonants are interchangeable.

Last Fearner