An Issue of Validity ??

[jtweymo]

Uh-huh.

Hi ya Saitama (and all others),


I... really shouldn't do this (and I'm not gonna carry it much further, beleive me, fellas.)

Saitama steve said: Actually, he didn't insinuate as you say. You read insinuations into what Mr.Smith wrote.

Saitama... come on, man. You're outright ignoring the obvious contrary remarks he entered, in my name as if I stated them. For all anyone knew, I might have emailed him or messaged him and made such remarks.

For all anyone knew, I might have emailed him or messaged him and made such remarks.

I never said those things... and once he did, you're right, at that point it wasn't an insinuation anymore.

Saitama steve said: Wait a second. You're mixing lineages yet again, when you know rather well that Yoshin-ryu & Shinto Yoshin-ryu are from the Akiyama Shirobei lines of Yoshin-ryu.

Takagi-ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu, Hontai Yoshin-ryu and all other variations on the name,) has lineage from Takagi Umanosuke (Which also means some influence from Takeuchi-ryu.)

Try not to mix them up. The differences are humungous.

Okay this is a difficult subject for you fellas and I appreciate that.

Yes, there are koryu descended of the Akiyama lineage. No those lineages do not have any particular entitlement to the ryuha names "shinto yoshin ryu" and "Yoshin ryu" BUT NO DOUBT the Akiyama lineages are more illustrious.

It's not my fault that the common gendai ryuha in question goes by the name 'Yoshin ryu' and 'Shinto yoshin ryu' (despite your perhaps reasonable objections.) It goes by all those names and more! It's not my doing, I am not mixing lineages.

That gendai ryuha is well known on the internet (ugh) due to multiple forms of it going under different names (as per it's usual custom) in the X-kans. Even the X-kanners admit that it has many dojos and instructors in Japan that aren't X-kan affiliates. Even they admit that it goes under the name "Yoshin ryu" and some of them admit that it's sometimes called "Shinto yoshin ryu" in certain dojos. Again, not my fault.

This gendai ryuha is no mystery, not unheard of, it's common knowledge over the internet -- howbeit more popularized among the X-kanners. I don't like referring to them because then my school gets confused as being X-kan or X-kan descended. My own associates from Florida know I ain't and my school ain't, since they knew the names of the kata I practiced all the way back as far as 1976. Point is that we ain't X-kan.

Saitama steve said: OK, so who is the headmaster of Shinden Yoshin-ryu at this point? Where's the hombu dojo?

Actually Saitama... I have no clue at all? Wish I did.
I know who was teaching it in Osaka when my instructor was studying there back in the 1960's. That the school itself (not necessarily the dojo mind you) still exists in Japan.... that I know for sure. But it sometimes called taught under a few the other names, what it's getting called today is a mystery to me. If not Shinden yoshin ryu, then Yoshin ryu was quite common.

As I have told all of you before: it was being taught in a tiny dojo in Osaka back in the 1960's. It wasn't a big organization, it was a tiny dojo.

You and me both know that not all of these types of gendai ryuha have hombu dojos. Heck, some of them don't actually have a headmaster.

You know that as well as I do, please, don't jive me, okay?



Saitama, I've seen my instructors old photos of both Okinawa and Osaka back in the 1960's... I know he was there. I saw the pictures of his instructors, Judogi and all.

Do you understand what I'm saying to you?

 

[jtweymo]

Hello JKS9199,

I hear ya loud and clear, I did not see your message before making that last posting.

If I broke the rules I apologize and will try to avoid doing so in the future.

Again I'm sorry.

 

[Saitama Steve]

Uh-huh.

Saitama... come on, man. You're outright ignoring the obvious contrary remarks he entered, in my name as if I stated them.

So now you're insinuating that Mr.Smith has falsely quoted you?

Okay this is a difficult subject for you fellas and I appreciate that.

Again you assume that a lot of us are clueless. Some of us have lived in Japan for extended periods of time and have friends in some of the aforementioned ryuha. In fact, some of us might have actually done Akiyama related ryuha.

Yes, there are koryu descended of the Akiyama lineage. No those lineages do not have any particular entitlement to the ryuha names "shinto yoshin ryu" and "Yoshin ryu" BUT NO DOUBT the Akiyama lineages are more illustrious.

No, it's a lineage that even with it's descendant ryuha have certain hallmarks that can be recognized. Nothing about prestige.

It's not my fault that the common gendai ryuha in question goes by the name 'Yoshin ryu' and 'Shinto yoshin ryu' (despite your perhaps reasonable objections.) It goes by all those names and more! It's not my doing, I am not mixing lineages.

Yes, there is a gendai called Yoshin-ryu, founded by Kai Kuniyuki, but it has nothing to do with either Takagi Umanosuke or Akiyama Shirobei.

That gendai ryuha is well known on the internet (ugh) due to multiple forms of it going under different names (as per it's usual custom) in the X-kans. Even the X-kanners admit that it has many dojos and instructors in Japan that aren't X-kan affiliates. Even they admit that it goes under the name "Yoshin ryu" and some of them admit that it's sometimes called "Shinto yoshin ryu" in certain dojos. Again, not my fault.

You are being rather vague here. Are you referring to Tagaki Yoshin-ryu when you mention the X-kan? It's not very clear. I have never heard X-kan exponents mention Takagi Yoshin-ryu refer to it as merely, "Yoshin-ryu" and it's definately never been referred to as "Shinto Yoshin-ryu".

Shinto Yoshin-ryu is a late Edo jidai koryu bujutsu with influences from two Akiyama lineage jujutsu ryu and two different kenjutsu ryu. It still has exponents in Japan and abroad.

The Takamatsuden exponents do not do Shinto Yoshin-ryu, nor refer to Takagi Yoshin-ryu as such.

This gendai ryuha is no mystery, not unheard of, it's common knowledge over the internet -- howbeit more popularized among the X-kanners. I don't like referring to them because then my school gets confused as being X-kan or X-kan descended. My own associates from Florida know I ain't and my school ain't, since they knew the names of the kata I practiced all the way back as far as 1976. Point is that we ain't X-kan.

Well that's funny, the mokuroku on your website for Shinden Yoshin-ryu is so close to Bujinkan syllabi, that it's not funny. Even the kata names are identical. Who knew?

I know who was teaching it in Osaka when my instructor was studying there back in the 1960's. That the school itself (not necessarily the dojo mind you) still exists in Japan.... that I know for sure. But it sometimes called taught under a few the other names, what it's getting called today is a mystery to me. If not Shinden yoshin ryu, then Yoshin ryu was quite common.

Great, you know the name of your teacher's teacher and the dojo. So where is it in Osaka and what was the name of your teacher's teacher?

You and me both know that not all of these types of gendai ryuha have hombu dojos. Heck, some of them don't actually have a headmaster.

You know that as well as I do, please, don't jive me, okay?

JIVE you? Mister you have a unique world view.

If there is a gendai out there without a hombu or even a break away group without a hombu, I have never heard of one.

Saitama, I've seen my instructors old photos of both Okinawa and Osaka back in the 1960's... I know he was there. I saw the pictures of his instructors, Judogi and all.

Do you understand what I'm saying to you?

So you've seen a bunch of photos. How long was you teacher there for? Who was his sensei?

 

[jtweymo]

Hi ya Saitama,

Actually, the guy that posted above seems to be a Moderator?

He don't like the course of the conversation, something about the rules getting broken... I can see where that might be coming into play there, Saitama.

So I'm really gonna curtail my remarks heavily.

If that don't suit ya, that's a drag...


What you're doing is called 'hound dogging' but I'll answer what's reasonable to answer.

Saitama said: So now you're insinuating that Mr.Smith has falsely quoted you?

No insinuation, direct statement. His remarks posted and the correction entered. I had little choice since somebody may have made the mistake of assuming that I emailed or messaged him with those remarks. I never said those things.

Saitama said: Again you assume that a lot of us are clueless. Some of us have lived in Japan for extended periods of time and have friends in some of the aforementioned ryuha. In fact, some of us might have actually done Akiyama related ryuha.

No... no... nope. You are now dogging me into a position where I am supposedly insulting the intelligence of the guys on the forum board. As well as insulting their life experiences. No.

You said it, not me.



You're remarks on the Akiyama lineage and the ryuha names in question I will ignore. That is your problem not mine. Besides, you seem to be talking about koryu and I haven't said a word about any koryu.

Saitama said: You are being rather vague here. Are you referring to Tagaki Yoshin-ryu when you mention the X-kan? It's not very clear. I have never heard X-kan exponents mention Takagi Yoshin-ryu refer to it as merely, "Yoshin-ryu" ...

AND

Saitama said: Well that's funny, the mokuroku on your website for Shinden Yoshin-ryu is so close to Bujinkan syllabi, that it's not funny. Even the kata names are identical. Who knew?

Uh-huh, you oughtta be ashamed of yourself !

Now your implying that my school of jujutsu is X-kan derived ?

I've seen the X-kan mokuroku posted to the net and in several text as well, including copies of the so called "Ninpo Taijutsu: Tenchijin ryaku no maki" and frankly, mister, this remark is baloney. It's loaded with their forms of Gyokko ryu kata, and many many besides that simply do not exist in my school's curriculum. I don't even know what some of that stuff is?

Now your claiming that our mokuroku and theirs is nearly identical !!

Anybody can see that the Takagi yoshin ryu material bears resemblance... but then again it's a yoshin ryu school itself... not particularly surprising. It also bears strong resemblance to darned near every other yoshin school of that type !! Including the Yamato yoshin ryu (which by the way was the subject of the web page that this thread is supposed to be about !!)

As for what the X-kans do and don't call the takagi yoshin ryu by, their own webpages and forums speak of this subject incessantly. I needn't bother further (in some instances your remarks disagree with theirs.)

The X-kans aren't my business to be talking about (all due respect.)

Saitama said: Great, you know the name of your teacher's teacher and the dojo. So where is it in Osaka and what was the name of your teacher's teacher?

AND

JIVE you? Mister you have a unique world view.
If there is a gendai out there without a hombu or even a break away group without a hombu, I have never heard of one.

AND

So you've seen a bunch of photos. How long was you teacher there for? Who was his sensei?

Now you're just being downright rude. I'll answer what's reasonable but I'm fairly sure you already read these remarks on my homepage anyway:

The dojo in Osaka was headed up and taught by Kimura, Yoshinuri Sensei, also from Osaka. And no, it wasn't the famous Judoka named Kimura so don't go there, okay? Kimura sensei had two assistants: Nomoto Sensei and Kawabe Sensei. Kimura was not the Founder but had been trained under him -- or possibly by his son or grandson, I dunno for sure? They taught in Osaka from 1946 until 1966. My instructor came back from his tour of duty around 1968 and opened his first dojo back in 1970. I entered the dojo back in 1975-76 at the age of 13 years old (minimum age at the school.)

And that's as far as I care to continue conversing with ya at this point.

But Saitama ? You fellas are making unecessary accusations and badgering for no reason -- we aren't what you think (heck, I ain't even sure what you think.) I been around the block, chum. Doing the same school of Jujutsu since 1975 with the exact same techniques. Same mokuroku.

Chum? This is ridiculous and I ain't doing this no more, okay??

 

[MarkBarlow]

Chum? This is ridiculous and I ain't doing this no more, okay??

Best news I've heard all day.

 

[jtweymo]

Heh heh heh... what a hoot.

But it's still a nice jot about the internet...
nice forum we got here.

 

[Saitama Steve]

No... no... nope. You are now dogging me into a position where I am supposedly insulting the intelligence of the guys on the forum board. As well as insulting their life experiences. No.

Read into what you wrote.

Okay this is a difficult subject for you fellas and I appreciate that.

As you said, "You said it, not me." There's so much attitude oozing off of that I have to wipe off my screen.

You're remarks on the Akiyama lineage and the ryuha names in question I will ignore. That is your problem not mine. Besides, you seem to be talking about koryu and I haven't said a word about any koryu.

Umm. You're talking about gendai that are connected to koryu via relation. When you mention Hontai Yoshin-ryu, you mention a koryu as you stated earlier on up in the thread. You're still saying you're not talking about koryu?

Since you have lumped any ryuha with the monicker "Yoshin" into the same pile, regardless of lineage, it's YOUR problem. Since it's your academic mistake. However, you want to ignore and side-step that.

Uh-huh, you oughtta be ashamed of yourself !

Now your implying that my school of jujutsu is X-kan derived ?

I've seen the X-kan mokuroku posted to the net and in several text as well, including copies of the so called "Ninpo Taijutsu: Tenchijin ryaku no maki" and frankly, mister, this remark is baloney. It's loaded with their forms of Gyokko ryu kata, and many many besides that simply do not exist in my school's curriculum. I don't even know what some of that stuff is?

Now your claiming that our mokuroku and theirs is nearly identical !!

I ought to be ashamed for making an observation based on actual experience? Please!

A member of Takagi-ryu has already looked at it as well as members of the X-kans. They said there were too many similarities.

Anybody can see that the Takagi yoshin ryu material bears resemblance... but then again it's a yoshin ryu school itself... not particularly surprising. It also bears strong resemblance to darned near every other yoshin school of that type !! Including the Yamato yoshin ryu (which by the way was the subject of the web page that this thread is supposed to be about !!)

Again, you just lump every school with "yoshin" in it's name regardless of lineage.

As for what the X-kans do and don't call the takagi yoshin ryu by, their own webpages and forums speak of this subject incessantly. I needn't bother further (in some instances your remarks disagree with theirs.)

If that is so, please provide some quotes with links from people who state this.

Now you're just being downright rude. I'll answer what's reasonable but I'm fairly sure you already read these remarks on my homepage anyway:

The dojo in Osaka was headed up and taught by Kimura, Yoshinuri Sensei, also from Osaka. And no, it wasn't the famous Judoka named Kimura so don't go there, okay? Kimura sensei had two assistants: Nomoto Sensei and Kawabe Sensei. Kimura was not the Founder but had been trained under him -- or possibly by his son or grandson, I dunno for sure? They taught in Osaka from 1946 until 1966. My instructor came back from his tour of duty around 1968 and opened his first dojo back in 1970. I entered the dojo back in 1975-76 at the age of 13 years old (minimum age at the school.)

Upon further examination, the only mention of Kimura Yoshinuri are on your websites only. Japanese searches show no findings. There aren't any other practicioners out there doing Shinden Yoshin-ryu in the world?

I also did a check on Kimura "Yoshinuri". Yoshinuri is not recognized as a male Japanese name. If you had typed "Yoshinari", I might have been thrown for a curve ball. Since you're such an articulate fellow, I know you don't make typos.

But Saitama ? You fellas are making unecessary accusations and badgering for no reason -- we aren't what you think (heck, I ain't even sure what you think.) I been around the block, chum. Doing the same school of Jujutsu since 1975 with the exact same techniques. Same mokuroku.

Unecessary accusations or observations?

 

[jtweymo]

Hello folks,

Well... I could do this but... I'm not gonna.

I will say this much, it's not really very appropriate for you to imply that (Kimura Yoshinuri sensei) is an affeminate name. That's more than a bit of an insult.

The only other reasonable thing you posted inquiry to was about other practitioners of and references to Shinden yoshin ryu NOT made by me on the internet. It's not all that common to encounter internet references to the school (at this time so far).

There are some few references to Shinden yoshin ryu on the net and elsewhere (it's usually just mentioned, by name, maybe in a book or perhaps the description of a video about martial arts.)

There are a few others (members of my instructors school are still around but not in my part of the country.) You gotta remember, I used to train this school with my chums. They know full well we did. However... if I were them and I saw this kind of blast going on... I'd just cruise right on past it without saying two words.

And frankly chum... that's where the shenanigans stop.

You got no call for badgering. If you wanted to ask for info, I'd gladly just cough it up. At this point I'm not even sure what you're doing.

Leave me alone, I was reasonable and answered you, now stop badgering me.

Okay Saitama?

 

[Saitama Steve]

Hello folks,

Well... I could do this but... I'm not gonna.

I will say this much, it's not really very appropriate for you to imply that (Kimura Yoshinuri sensei) is an affeminate name. That's more than a bit of an insult.

No, it's just that Yoshinuri is not a name. Yoshiaki, Yoshinoru or Yoshinari are names in Japanese culture. Yoshinuri is not a name in Japanese culture.

The only other reasonable thing you posted inquiry to was about other practitioners of and references to Shinden yoshin ryu NOT made by me on the internet. It's not all that common to encounter internet references to the school (at this time so far).

But all other references to Shinden Yoshin-ryu on the internet are authored by you.

Example:

Hello, I'm Jtweymo...

And this is my blog about Shinden yōshin ryū, jujutsu. It's a crappy little gendai school of goshin-jujutsu. Not much really but it does have some nice points (I particularly like the doctrines and teachings myself, they are handy in some respects.)

There are definitely people better suited to making web-pages than me, but for now I guess I'll have to do. So... what exactly is a "blog" anyway? I haven't a clue, really. Blog. Blogh blagh blah blah. Haa haa haa. Well, hopefully I don't screw this up completely (but if I do... I'm blaming it all on YOU.)


ō ū 8 one 2 ?!?

Posted by jtweymo at 2:50 PM 0 comments

Mind you all I asked was who else is teaching Shinden Yoshin-ryu besides you.

There are some few references to Shinden yoshin ryu on the net and elsewhere (it's usually just mentioned, by name, maybe in a book or perhaps the description of a video about martial arts.)

None that I have seen in English or Japanese. Again only yours. Like this one, where you falsely claim; "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A YOSHIN SCHOOL THAT ISN'T RELATED TO THE ENTIRE YOSHIN LINEAGE."

But of course, it's foolish to ask you to cite your claims with sources, since you say on one of your various blogs; "Before any of you ask me for sources: please, I tend only to cite common knowledge and as such sources for it are numerous but not always in English."

There are a few others (members of my instructors school are still around but not in my part of the country.) You gotta remember, I used to train this school with my chums. They know full well we did. However... if I were them and I saw this kind of blast going on... I'd just cruise right on past it without saying two words.

So where are they? Surely these chums of yours are also teaching Shinden Yoshin-ryu in the USA.

 

[MarkBarlow]

Leave me alone, I was reasonable and answered you, now stop badgering me.

Okay Saitama?

Again, you opened the discussion and when it doesn't go the way you want, you accuse others of badgering or misquoting you. I haven't heard anyone question your years of training or ability, only the "facts" as you choose to present them. There are several folks on this board with more than enough experience and knowledge to debunk what you insist are obvious facts. Sorry, I for one, don't buy it.

 

[jtweymo]

Whew.

Hi ya Saitama.

Look...

ok.

Saitama said: No, it's just that Yoshinuri is not a name. Yoshiaki, Yoshinoru or Yoshinari are names in Japanese culture. Yoshinuri is not a name in Japanese culture.

AND PRIOR POST

I also did a check on Kimura "Yoshinuri". Yoshinuri is not recognized as a male Japanese name. If you had typed "Yoshinari", I might have been thrown for a curve ball. Since you're such an articulate fellow, I know you don't make typos.

You're contradicting yourself, ok?

Which is it? Not a male name? Or not a name at all? In the one remark you imply that's it's a female personal name. Now you state no such name exists at all.

That was HIS name, Saitama. He was a man, not a woman... and you sir are very insultuous.

If you were behaving reasonably and not throwing around meaningless gripes... asking straight out questions for infos sake... I'd oblige you. I have to this point and answered whatever inquiry you placed, without regard to your poor manners.

Even the moderator fella complained that this was possibly breaking the rules. It don't need to happen. Obey the rules.

Nobody getting worthlessly badgered like this is gonna interact with you and neither am I. I sure ain't.

Don't keep hounding me or I'll report it to the moderator, ok?

 

[Saitama Steve]

Whew.

Hi ya Saitama.

Look...

ok.


AND PRIOR POST


You're contradicting yourself, ok?

Which is it? Not a male name? Or not a name at all? In the one remark you imply that's it's a female personal name. Now you state no such name exists at all.

That was HIS name, Saitama. He was a man, not a woman... and you sir are very insultuous.

It's neither a name nor a male designated name in Japanese culture at all.

No Insult. Fact.

If you were behaving reasonably and not throwing around meaningless gripes... asking straight out questions for infos sake... I'd oblige you. I have to this point and answered whatever inquiry you placed, without regard to your poor manners.

Even the moderator fella complained that this was possibly breaking the rules. It don't need to happen. Obey the rules.

Nobody getting worthlessly badgered like this is gonna interact with you and neither am I. I sure ain't.

Don't keep hounding me or I'll report it to the moderator, ok?

Well what you do is basically misinform people who have no background in certain fields of study in budo. If your information was correct, which it is most certainly not, we wouldn't be having this exchange. I don't like seeing people who really want to know or learn being led up the garden path.

You say you're an amateur linguist. Where Did you learn your Japanese？

日本語で武道関係の会話をやりましょうか

It's one thing to base a theory on some rudimentary knowledge of kanji.

It is totally another to know the culture, language and it's trappings and have experience.

 

[shesulsa]

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[Bob Hubbard]

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