American Kenpo or Kajukenbo?

[Tired_Yeti]

That not want he said. He said under stress and pressure and feel of death or getting beaten up on the street remembering Kenp moves is hard. That it takes lot of time for Kenp moves be natural like when you typing on the computer or driving a car. That you don't think you just do it. It comes natural to you from doing it over and over you don't think.

That's not at all what he said.


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[Tired_Yeti]

...PS- 95% of the guys on YouTube are a poor example.

Why is that?
Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?
Or is it because there are that many bad Kenpo instructors around--if so, why?

Sounds like a cop out to me.



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[Touch Of Death]

Why is that?
Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?
Or is it because there are that many bad Kenpo instructors around--if so, why?

Sounds like a cop out to me.



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Yes, I cop out to not having control over anybody's kenpo. If you guy's would listen, I can help.

 

[drop bear]

What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?

May be you need to find other school if there are secret techniques they are not teaching.

My view is if they are secret they cant be very good. There is a reason a technique is common.

 

[Tez3]

Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?

Yes.

 

[Tiger84]

Why is that?
Is that also true for 95% of the videos demonstrating the other styles too?
Or is it because there are that many bad Kenpo instructors around--if so, why?

Sounds like a cop out to me.



Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk

I can't comment about the other martial arts but as far as Kenpo goes... Yes there are plenty of poor Kenpo instructors. I don't want to troll but look at Windy City Kenpo. Generally the situation goes like this, either the student doesn't understand what he's doing or the instructor doesn't know what he's doing. For example if I went to an excellent Kenpo instructor but was unable to fully understand the concepts but was physically good enough to reach 3rd black, which is full instructor, and opened a school all my students would suffer. How can one hope to explain things when they themselves don't understand them. Usually those people make changes to the system and then the original concepts are lost because they simply can't make them work. Now I've gone from a poor student to a poor instructor and the circle continues. As someone else said , it does have a great deal to do with lineage.. However it's not that cut and dry. You could go to the best martial arts instructor in the world and if you don't understand it like the instructor understands it then anyone you teach will be sub par and then the lineage gets a bad rap. That being said I am far from perfect and I would never record myself and put it on you tube, Kenpo is very technical and we generally love to split hairs. Kenpoists are perfectionists and you better know what your talking about if you're going to put it out there for everyone to see. I would not present a concept online that I did not fully unsterstand and be able to defend.

 

[Tiger84]

It is interesting that as part of his American Kenpo training, Tired Yeti learned the "punch the foot technique."

It is the single most criticized technique that Mitose demonstrated to Parker and his students, and I can't imagine it being taught in a Parker Kenpo school.

I don't know the Parker system, but I have to doubt that this technique exists as a legitimate part of the curriculum.

But, I'm only a Tracy's guy, and this thread (Tiger84) has already established that when it comes to Kenpo, I know nothing.

I don't know you so I didn't say anything about you, only that there is a life times worth of knowledge in the system that some of the Tracy guys don't have. To be fair some of the Parker guys don't have it either. There were 4 official versions of Kenpo by the time of Mr. Parkers death and the Tracy's learned version 1 so by that logic there are 3 versions worth of knowledge they don't have. It was and is a progressive system as Mr. Parker intended it to be. I'm not saying that the intellegent Tracy guys couldn't have figured some of this stuff out but being that the Tracy's were excommunicated from the system I'd say they're probably few and far between. There is no technique where we punch a foot , that was just in the movie. To circle back to my previous post about there being hidden knowledge, there are also things that are incorrect on purpose to deceive those who would use Kenpo immorally and this is a perfect example of that. Go ahead and try to punch someone in the foot while they're kicking and see how it works out.lol

 

[KenpoDave]

Tired Yeti stated that "I still remember being taught a technique where you punch straight down on the foot..."

He didn't say he was taught it from a movie. But he uses it as an example of his doubts about Parker.

Parker was a critic of that technique, so I imagine that Yeti and Parker are actually on the same page.

I would love to know who taught him the technique.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know you so I didn't say anything about you, only that there is a life times worth of knowledge in the system that some of the Tracy guys don't have. To be fair some of the Parker guys don't have it either. There were 4 official versions of Kenpo by the time of Mr. Parkers death and the Tracy's learned version 1 so by that logic there are 3 versions worth of knowledge they don't have. It was and is a progressive system as Mr. Parker intended it to be. I'm not saying that the intellegent Tracy guys couldn't have figured some of this stuff out but being that the Tracy's were excommunicated from the system I'd say they're probably few and far between. There is no technique where we punch a foot , that was just in the movie. To circle back to my previous post about there being hidden knowledge, there are also things that are incorrect on purpose to deceive those who would use Kenpo immorally and this is a perfect example of that. Go ahead and try to punch someone in the foot while they're kicking and see how it works out.lol

As I said, those who make this Parker vs. Tracy argument can spin it in any direction they want. There is an argument that the changes mr. Parker made later were garbage, and were a deliberate dumbing-down of the method in an attempt to make it more marketable and financially viable. In that argument, the new stuff and the changes were less than worthless. I've seen it said that none of the old-timers went along with those changes because the could see it was crap, and this has been posted here and on kenpotalk by Ron Chapel, who apparently was a very close friend and student of mr. Parker, up until mr. Parkers death.

The debate can be presented any way one wishes, with references in support, and I suggest you don't go down that path, it's not worthwhile.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As I said, those who make this Parker vs. Tracy argument can spin it in any direction they want. There is an argument that the changes mr. Parker made later were garbage, and were a deliberate dumbing-down of the method in an attempt to make it more marketable and financially viable. In that argument, the new stuff and the changes were less than worthless. I've seen it said that none of the old-timers went along with those changes because the could see it was crap, and this has been posted here and on kenpotalk by Ron Chapel, who apparently was a very close friend and student of mr. Parker, up until mr. Parkers death.

The debate can be presented any way one wishes, with references in support, and I suggest you don't go down that path, it's not worthwhile.

I would venture to say most old timers didn't understand his changes, but a change is always "more" better, when you already know a method, you can fall back on. That is to say, learning a refinement, may not do you any good, unless you know it's base.

 

[Tiger84]

As I said, those who make this Parker vs. Tracy argument can spin it in any direction they want. There is an argument that the changes mr. Parker made later were garbage, and were a deliberate dumbing-down of the method in an attempt to make it more marketable and financially viable. In that argument, the new stuff and the changes were less than worthless. I've seen it said that none of the old-timers went along with those changes because the could see it was crap, and this has been posted here and on kenpotalk by Ron Chapel, who apparently was a very close friend and student of mr. Parker, up until mr. Parkers death.

The debate can be presented any way one wishes, with references in support, and I suggest you don't go down that path, it's not worthwhile.

Well your right, clearly we can go back and forth about this forever. I would caution you about quoting Ron Chapel, I have seen him put many people on blast on this forum. I don't believe a word of that and I would very much like to see where he said Mr. Parkers system was crap.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well your right, clearly we can go back and forth about this forever. I would caution you about quoting Ron Chapel, I have seen him put many people on blast on this forum. I don't believe a word of that and I would very much like to see where he said Mr. Parkers system was crap.

He has posted it many times on MT and KT, my understanding of the gist is that what mr Parker personally practiced, for himself, was very good, but was not at all the same as what he was selling to the general public. If I get some time, perhaps I'll see if I can dig up one of his posts, but he is more active on KT now and rarely comes here to MT.

I know not everyone agrees with him, and I'm not championing any version as I am no longer connected to any Kenpo. My point is simply that this issue can be argued in any direction you want and it's easy for it to become an endless and pointless debate, so let's not go there.

 

[moonhill99]

I can't comment about the other martial arts but as far as Kenpo goes... Yes there are plenty of poor Kenpo instructors. I don't want to troll but look at Windy City Kenpo. Generally the situation goes like this, either the student doesn't understand what he's doing or the instructor doesn't know what he's doing. For example if I went to an excellent Kenpo instructor but was unable to fully understand the concepts but was physically good enough to reach 3rd black, which is full instructor, and opened a school all my students would suffer. How can one hope to explain things when they themselves don't understand them. Usually those people make changes to the system and then the original concepts are lost because they simply can't make them work. Now I've gone from a poor student to a poor instructor and the circle continues. As someone else said , it does have a great deal to do with lineage.. However it's not that cut and dry. You could go to the best martial arts instructor in the world and if you don't understand it like the instructor understands it then anyone you teach will be sub par and then the lineage gets a bad rap. That being said I am far from perfect and I would never record myself and put it on you tube, Kenpo is very technical and we generally love to split hairs. Kenpoists are perfectionists and you better know what your talking about if you're going to put it out there for everyone to see. I would not present a concept online that I did not fully unsterstand and be able to defend.

The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.

Where two years of boxing you can be really good. It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.

It like comparing EMT to say a doctor.

There so much to learn and it takes long time for it to be second nature.

If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well it will take you 6 to 8 years!! Yes training two or three times a week to be really good at it.

 

[Tames D]

The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.
It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.There so much to learn and it takes long time for it to be second nature.
If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well it will take you 6 to 8 years!!

Are you saying it will take a long time?

 

[Kickboxer101]

The problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.

Where two years of boxing you can be really good. It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn.

It like comparing EMT to say a doctor.

There so much to learn and it takes long time for it to be second nature.

If you want to take say American Kenpo or wing chun well good!! But to be really good at it well it will take you 6 to 8 years!! Yes training two or three times a week to be really good at it.

Um so does every martial art you don't get good in one week in anything

 

[Kickboxer101]

He has posted it many times on MT and KT, my understanding of the gist is that what mr Parker personally practiced, for himself, was very good, but was not at all the same as what he was selling to the general public. If I get some time, perhaps I'll see if I can dig up one of his posts, but he is more active on KT now and rarely comes here to MT.

I know not everyone agrees with him, and I'm not championing any version as I am no longer connected to any Kenpo. My point is simply that this issue can be argued in any direction you want and it's easy for it to become an endless and pointless debate, so let's not go there.

Now I'm no expert on kenpo but isn't that the point everyone's kenpo should be different. Parker had his ways that worked for him but he still taught the standard art so everyone got the same information and then made the changes themselves to what they need. It's like no 2 kickboxers fight the same way no 2 grapplers roll the same way no 2 kenpo practitioners are going do things different and also just to add it's very easy to criticise someone when he's dead.

This isn't me being a kenpo fan boy as you can tell by my username but I'm just using common sense here

 

[Flying Crane]

Now I'm no expert on kenpo but isn't that the point everyone's kenpo should be different. Parker had his ways that worked for him but he still taught the standard art so everyone got the same information and then made the changes themselves to what they need. It's like no 2 kickboxers fight the same way no 2 grapplers roll the same way no 2 kenpo practitioners are going do things different and also just to add it's very easy to criticise someone when he's dead.

This isn't me being a kenpo fan boy as you can tell by my username but I'm just using common sense here

As I say, it's not my argument to make. I have my own reasons for no longer training Kenpo. You would need to ask Mr. Chapel for clarification, or dig up his old posts, or search on kenpotalk.com for what he has said. Personally, what he says does make sense to me, but I never knew mr. Parker, so I can't say yay or nay on it.

 

[moonhill99]

he problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.
It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn


QUOTE=" , post: 1774710 he problem with American Kenpo with likes like wing chun that has same major problem is it takes 6 to 8 years to be really good at it.
It not that boxing is better it is that it takes American Kenpo and likes of say wing chun long time to learn

Are you saying it will take a long time?

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[moonhill99]

As I say, it's not my argument to make. I have my own reasons for no longer training Kenpo. You would need to ask Mr. Chapel for clarification, or dig up his old posts, or search on kenpotalk.com for what he has said. Personally, what he says does make sense to me, but I never knew mr. Parker, so I can't say yay or nay on it.

I don't think he was bashing Kenpo saying it no good. It just that Kenpo does not blend well with Judo. Where Kajukenbo or Enshin karate blend lot better with Judo than Kenpo.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

Tired Yeti stated that "I still remember being taught a technique where you punch straight down on the foot..."

He didn't say he was taught it from a movie. But he uses it as an example of his doubts about Parker.

Parker was a critic of that technique, so I imagine that Yeti and Parker are actually on the same page.

I would love to know who taught him the technique.

It was many years ago. I don't remember the sensei's full name. Last name was Martin. It was in Mountain View, California in 1979.
Maybe Don Martin or Steve Martin. It's really hard to remember so long ago. From the various posts I've read here, I'm beginning to perceive that it's possible my teacher was either teaching outdated techniques or was otherwise no longer in step with Ed Parker. Still, seems hard for me to believe since that was back in the heyday of Am. Kenpo and it was in California where that style was pretty hot.