American Kenpo or Kajukenbo?

[Kickboxer101]

Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.

Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.




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Looks like tired yeti is also stupid yeti. I've never trained in kenpo but doing those techniques is no different to doing combos on the pads. I can practice a combo 100 times but In a fight I may only need 1 move of that combo and that add another completely different move that's the same as any other martial art you do drills to build up skills and muscle memory of different moves so you can put them altogether

 

[Tiger84]

IME, American Kenpo is a joke. It was basically a get-rich-quick scheme for Ed Parker.
I've studied it and found it to be ridiculously ineffective in a real fight.

P.S. ALL traditional Okinawan karate has grappling, throws, joint locks, and strangles. Study the katas. They're in there.


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Mr. Parker got burned by the Tracy brothers and hid much of the knowledge, martial arts are or were generally secretive regardless. There are sequential movements learned and once you can do them well they can be intertwined almost infinitely. It is at its simplest form the study of motion and if you can't figure it out or can't get the proper guidance then either your not paying attention or your instructor doesn't know what he's doing either.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mr. Parker got burned by the Tracy brothers and hid much of the knowledge, martial arts are or were generally secretive regardless. There are sequential movements learned and once you can do them well they can be intertwined almost infinitely. It is at its simplest form the study of motion and if you can't figure it out or can't get the proper guidance then either your not paying attention or your instructor doesn't know what he's doing either.

Would tend to agree, but nothing is hidden. You can see the difference between the kenpos with your own eyes.

 

[Tiger84]

Would tend to agree, but nothing is hidden. You can see the difference between the kenpos with your own eyes.

I dont quite understand what you mean by nothing is hidden. There is plenty that the Tracy's are missing as far as understanding of the system although the clues to properly appling what you've learned lye in the combination of ideal phase techniques, free style techniques, spontaneous and forms which was more to the point for his statement of an inability to effectively use Kenpo in a fight. And I suppose that information is kinda hidden in plain sight which is why one has to have a clear understanding of the system. People often have the misconception that all the answers are in the ideal phase techniques when you need all four parts to get a whole.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is plenty that the Tracy's are missing as far as understanding of the system...

Do you know this from experience, or is this something your instructor told you?

 

[Tiger84]

Do you know this from experience, or is this something your instructor told you?

I was not exactly told this info, I did ask my instructor ( who knew Mr. Parker personally and all the rest of the guys floating around in the 80's and 90's until Parkers death) about them and after hearing his response I took it upon myself to learn more about what was going on with these guys. I have seen for myself what the Tracy's and their students are doing and there are many gaps in their knowledge of the system. American Kenpo is a progressive system and should incorporate any new ...valid ideas that follow the Kenpo rules. It has been changed a few times since Mr. Parker started teaching and that's the way he wanted it. His vision was to create something that people could themselves learn to create with. All that said, watch any material where the Tracy's ( and I keep saying. Tracy's but if I'm not mistaken I think Al is the only one still involved) are teaching or demonstrating and you can simply tell their understanding by listening to what they have to say. Ask them questions about why your doing or what your doing and how it fits with everything else you learn and you should easily be able to separate the BS. Unless ofcourse they know more than you in which case they would appear to have all the answers. They sure do have a load of **** on their web page as well bashing Parker and surprisingly just making stuff up to justify "Tracy Kenpo"

 

[Flying Crane]

Which part?

The part that I quoted, in my reply.

 

[Tiger84]

Do you know this from experience, or is this something your instructor told you?

In addition , I can see where you're going with that. One should not just regurgitate information. This is my opinion that I came to my own conclusion about. In a more to the point example we recently had some Tracy black belts come work out with us and they themselves were surprised at the lack of info they had by their own comparison. I by no means know everything and in fact am far from it but by looking at what I know vs what they know it's pretty clear.

 

[Flying Crane]

In addition , I can see where you're going with that. One should not just regurgitate information. This is my opinion that I came to my own conclusion about. In a more to the point example we recently had some Tracy black belts come work out with us and they themselves were surprised at the lack of info they had by their own comparison. I by no means know everything and in fact am far from it but by looking at what I know vs what they know it's pretty clear.

Fair enough. And for the record, I am an EX-Tracy guy, meaning I came to the conclusion that it is not a good method for me, personally, even tho a lot of others feel it's pretty great. So I do not train in it anymore.

My knowledge of other branches of Kenpo is limited to years of discussions here and on the sister site, kenpotalk.com, and videos on YouTube and such, and reading mr. Parkers infinite insights series.. What I've gleaned from those sources leaves me likewise unimpressed, with no interest in pursuing Kenpo of any flavor. As I said in an earlier post, we make that decision for ourselves, and something we dislike might work very well for others, so this is a personal decision to make.

The debate over what the Tracy's did vs what mr. Parker did goes back and forth. Everyone makes the argument one way or the other, typically in a manner to bolster what they themselves are doing. It is far from objective and is typically not a fruitful discussion, so I'll just caution you against starting those kinds of debates

 

[Tiger84]

Fair enough. And for the record, I am an EX-Tracy guy, meaning I came to the conclusion that it is not a good method for me, personally, even tho a lot of others feel it's pretty great. So I do not train in it anymore.

My knowledge of other branches of Kenpo is limited to years of discussions here and on the sister site, kenpotalk.com, and videos on YouTube and such, and reading mr. Parkers infinite insights series.. What I've gleaned from those sources leaves me likewise unimpressed, with no interest in pursuing Kenpo of any flavor. As I said in an earlier post, we make that decision for ourselves, and something we dislike might work very well for others, so this is a personal decision to make.

The debate over what the Tracy's did vs what mr. Parker did goes back and forth. Everyone makes the argument one way or the other, typically in a manner to bolster what they themselves are doing. It is far from objective and is typically not a fruitful discussion, so I'll just caution you against starting those kinds of debates

Can't argue with that. It is a personal decision and to each his own. I was only attempting but maybe failed to explain why the original poster couldn't make Kenpo affective. In actuality once you learn the rules of Kenpo you don't necessarily have to do it anymore. Students should be encouraged to create their own stuff and some of those students may find that what they create looks nothing like Kenpo and that's ok. The way Mr. Parker laid everything out is basically how he created the system (if you believe he created it of course). Kenpo is very structured and the OCD in me likes that. Therefore you could create your own system tailored specifically to you. Personally I really like Russian Systema as well, which in many ways is opposite of Kenpo but oddly blends quite nicely, they break a lot of Kenpo rules so I make the necessary adjustments to make them fit. It really doesn't matter what style you do as long as your good at fighting which is the goal. It is at its simplist form the study of motion. With that said, do whatever you like. I am not here to force anything on anyone, only to clarify the common misconceptions of my art.

Ps- 95% of the guys on YouTube are a poor example.

 

[AsianJ]

I think Kajukenbo maybe a better blend because the "Ju" in Kajukenbo stands for judo. If you do Kajukenbo then you'll learn how to use your judo in a stand up fight.


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[KenpoDave]

It is interesting that as part of his American Kenpo training, Tired Yeti learned the "punch the foot technique."

It is the single most criticized technique that Mitose demonstrated to Parker and his students, and I can't imagine it being taught in a Parker Kenpo school.

I don't know the Parker system, but I have to doubt that this technique exists as a legitimate part of the curriculum.

But, I'm only a Tracy's guy, and this thread (Tiger84) has already established that when it comes to Kenpo, I know nothing.

 

[Blindside]

In addition , I can see where you're going with that. One should not just regurgitate information. This is my opinion that I came to my own conclusion about. In a more to the point example we recently had some Tracy black belts come work out with us and they themselves were surprised at the lack of info they had by their own comparison. I by no means know everything and in fact am far from it but by looking at what I know vs what they know it's pretty clear.

As a ex mostly Tracy kenpo guy, I worked out with and even taught for several AK guys in my time in Kenpo. I must say I never felt like I didn't understand a concept or felt like I had a lack of info. Oh, I can't do the AK kenpo jargon like some AKers can, but I probably have a different name for it and can certainly demonstrate it. Not the same thing as a lack of info.

I have run into both Tracy and Parker kenpoists that I was um, less than impressed with, and that tends to be a lineage thing so it tends to afflict whole schools.

 

[moonhill99]

That Kenpoist has a very unique way of doing Kenpo, and is the head of just organization, of several. You can't accuse every kenpoist of moving like that because, most of us don't.

That was a demo video. So the attacker was moving very slow.

Some one high on PCP or some one who really want's to knock you out will be moving lot faster.

 

[moonhill99]

Can I get you some gauze or an ice pack? You just shot yourself in the foot.
Why would any rational person spend time and money to learn a set of self-defense skills that don't work AS THEY'RE TAUGHT? What seems stupid is training all that muscle memory in techniques that aren't supposed to work!
Essentially, you're equating American Kenpo with Tai Chi. Just a set of moves that resemble some stuff that used to be related to fighting but don't work as they're taught now.
So you supported my claims that if you want to be able to survive a REAL fight, the stuff won't work. If it doesn't work as taught then the techniques will have to be modified to work. So to learn that, you'd go to a sensei who teaches the "modified" versions which lands you....in a different style of karate. Dispense with the nonsense, learn the "modified" effective techniques and you end up in--whatever, Goju Ryu, Ryu Te, Wado, etc.

Sorry you spent years and lots of money knowingly studying a system that won't work the way it was taught or the way you've been trained. I won't call you stupid, though. No need.




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That not want he said. He said under stress and pressure and feel of death or getting beaten up on the street remembering Kenp moves is hard. That it takes lot of time for Kenp moves be natural like when you typing on the computer or driving a car. That you don't think you just do it. It comes natural to you from doing it over and over you don't think.

 

[Touch Of Death]

That not want he said. He said under stress and pressure and feel of death or getting beaten up on the street remembering Kenp moves is hard. That it takes lot of time for Kenp moves be natural like when you typing on the computer or driving a car. That you don't think you just do it. It comes natural to you from doing it over and over you don't think.

Truth!

 

[drop bear]

I don't bother with secret techniques. I barely have time to work on the obvious ones.

 

[moonhill99]

I don't bother with secret techniques. I barely have time to work on the obvious ones.

What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?

May be you need to find other school if there are secret techniques they are not teaching.

 

[Tames D]

What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?

It depends on the tuition tier. Some secret lessons cost more than others.

 

[Touch Of Death]

What secret kenpo techniques they are not teaching at your school?

May be you need to find other school if there are secret techniques they are not teaching.

Nice try buddy! It's a secret.