Amanda Knox

[Steve]

"Foxy Knoxy"? Whatever the sins of the Italian or American press, it's pretty clear the UK press has their own axe to grind.

The Italian court system really screwed up though and showed their biases. Introducing into evidence that Knox masturbated or sometimes wore sexy panties? That she had sex with her boyfriend? How does that bear on the question of murder? No one knows exactly what happened other than the few people involved, but plenty are happy to line up on either side and act as if they did.

She-devil. Foxy Knoxy. She's been crucified in the international press. Neutral. Come on, Tez.

 

[Tez3]

I think what many are doing is assuming the Italian justice system is the same as the UK and American ones, it's very different though. Rules of evidence, witness statements etc are very different from what we are used to so things are introduced into court that we wouldn't have in our courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure#Judges_of_the_trial

In an Italian court the defendant may lie as much as they want, they take no oath to tell the truth and can't be charged with perjury.
Defendant"The defendant can be called to the stand, but he may refuse to bear testimony,[SUP][18][/SUP] or he may refuse to answer some questions. He can also lie. Since he does not take an oath and since he is not technically a witness, if a defendant tells a lie, he is not committing perjury.
A defendant can also choose to make spontaneous statements to the Judge; he can tell whatever he wishes to tell and can choose not to answer any questions. In this case too, a defendant can lie without consequences."

 

[Steve]

I think what many are doing is assuming the Italian justice system is the same as the UK and American ones, it's very different though. Rules of evidence, witness statements etc are very different from what we are used to so things are introduced into court that we wouldn't have in our courts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure#Judges_of_the_trial

In an Italian court the defendant may lie as much as they want, they take no oath to tell the truth and can't be charged with perjury.
Defendant"The defendant can be called to the stand, but he may refuse to bear testimony,[SUP][18][/SUP] or he may refuse to answer some questions. He can also lie. Since he does not take an oath and since he is not technically a witness, if a defendant tells a lie, he is not committing perjury.
A defendant can also choose to make spontaneous statements to the Judge; he can tell whatever he wishes to tell and can choose not to answer any questions. In this case too, a defendant can lie without consequences."

I'm not getting the connection. Are you saying that, because she could lie, you believe she did? That's a tenuous line of reasoning.

Also, for what it's worth, you're absolutely right that the emphasis locally has been on Knox. Her trial, conviction, appeal and subsequent acquittal. Over the last two days, in every story, the emphasis has been on the victim.

And once again, I believe that the crime was heinous and tragic. I also believe, based on what evidence I've read about, that the killer has already been convicted and is in jail. Rudy Gueda is serving 16 years in prison for the murder. I might be wrong. I'll never know for sure. But based on what I've read, it seems pretty convincing to me that Gueda was there alone, killed her alone.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not getting the connection. Are you saying that, because she could lie, you believe she did? That's a tenuous line of reasoning.

Also, for what it's worth, you're absolutely right that the emphasis locally has been on Knox. Her trial, conviction, appeal and subsequent acquittal. Over the last two days, in every story, the emphasis has been on the victim.

And once again, I believe that the crime was heinous and tragic. I also believe, based on what evidence I've read about, that the killer has already been convicted and is in jail. Rudy Gueda is serving 16 years in prison for the murder. I might be wrong. I'll never know for sure. But based on what I've read, it seems pretty convincing to me that Gueda was there alone, killed her alone.

I was actually just pointing out the difference between their justice systems and ours, you are reading far too much into it. It was commented that information was given in court that wasn't relevant, I was pointing out that Italian courts as do others in Europe have different rules and we can't judge the trial or the appeal by what we are used to, pointing out that the defendant can lie with impunity was just one of the differences I wanted to put across. We aren't used to that in either of our systems.
As for her lying, she was convicted and given a three year sentence for lying so that if anything could mean she lied in court.

What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country. The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt? being American or British doesn't mean you can't be guilty because you are arrested in a foreign country. Brits are often guilty of thinking every Brit arrested abroad has been fitted up by the local police so it's not unusual thinking but the white washing of a drug taking slapper is a bit more than some of us can stomach. she 'may' be innocent of the murder but painting her as an innocent chaste girl is a step to far for most of us. this is the girl who while her friend was in the morgue with a slashed throat did cartwheels around the police station, snogged her boyfriend's face off, laughed and joked and generally behaved like it was all a great joke.

As the Kercher family said, there's still questions that need answering.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country.

ahhh no... I would not take what you read on MT or any other place or see on TV as what Americans think, don't forget Bill's post. may Americans simply do not care others think she did it and some think she didn't. I would not take the word of the vocal minority as to what Americans think.

Lets put it this way, do all in Britan think just like you and share your beliefs and opinions on everything... I guessing no.

The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt? being American or British doesn't mean you can't be guilty because you are arrested in a foreign country.

Again for some yes...others no...but here is an interesting thing that may be in play here. This may be a media hype thing...meaning what a lot of people see and hear in movies they tend to beleive and Italy is not always portrayed in a positive way when it comes to law and order. Same goes for other countries as well. Hey my wife was convinced all Americans did was hop from bed to bed and all were rich based soley on Movies that portrayed Americans as such in China.

As the Kercher family said, there's still questions that need answering.

Absolutly.


I do have a question for you as it applies to the British Legal system and the Italian one as well

In America once arrested the defendant is considered innocent until provenguilty and the burden of proof is on the prosecution in other countries it is reversed "Guilty until proven innocent, China is one of these as are awhole lot of countries.

I was under the impression the Britain was also Guilty until proven innocent, am I correct?

And would you know what Italy was?

These are simply asked out of curiosity by the way

 

[Empty Hands]

I was actually just pointing out the difference between their justice systems and ours, you are reading far too much into it. It was commented that information was given in court that wasn't relevant, I was pointing out that Italian courts as do others in Europe have different rules and we can't judge the trial or the appeal by what we are used to, pointing out that the defendant can lie with impunity was just one of the differences I wanted to put across. We aren't used to that in either of our systems.

I certainly can judge. Masturbation is a near-universal human behavior. So is having sex. Neither has anything to do with being a murderer. That is true and thus the "evidence" is irrelevant and prejudicial in any justice system. I'm not going to throw up my hands and refuse to judge when, let's say, a Saudi court throws a woman in jail for driving. Wrong is wrong.

Brits are often guilty of thinking every Brit arrested abroad has been fitted up by the local police so it's not unusual thinking but the white washing of a drug taking slapper is a bit more than some of us can stomach. she 'may' be innocent of the murder but painting her as an innocent chaste girl is a step to far for most of us.

Who painted her as an "innocent chaste girl"? The question is whether or not she committed murder. Her chastity or lack thereof has nothing to do with that question. Nor does taking drugs. Nor is being a slapper.

It's pretty telling that you describe her in such negative, judgmental terms. Slut (slapper). Druggie. And so forth. It sounds like you want her punished because you disagree with her personal choices. Describing her like that does little to dispel the suspicion that many want to see her punished because she is a young, pretty sexually active woman (since when does having sex with your boyfriend make you a slut?).

And again, her personal choices have nothing to do with the question of whether or not she is a murderer. Completely irrelevant. Prejudicial to even bring up. Hence the criticism.

this is the girl who while her friend was in the morgue with a slashed throat did cartwheels around the police station, snogged her boyfriend's face off, laughed and joked and generally behaved like it was all a great joke.

Again, irrelevant.

However, you're telling me you've never come across people that respond to stress and tragedy in odd or inappropriate ways? I've met people that laugh or smile when under great stress. I've met people that laughed when a relative died. People are different. Sometimes people respond in a way that you would not.

That doesn't make Knox innocent. But it also doesn't make her guilty.

 

[Steve]

I was actually just pointing out the difference between their justice systems and ours, you are reading far too much into it. It was commented that information was given in court that wasn't relevant, I was pointing out that Italian courts as do others in Europe have different rules and we can't judge the trial or the appeal by what we are used to, pointing out that the defendant can lie with impunity was just one of the differences I wanted to put across. We aren't used to that in either of our systems.

Fair enough.

As for her lying, she was convicted and given a three year sentence for lying so that if anything could mean she lied in court.

Again, a fair point. I believe she was convicted of defamation.

What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country.

This actually hurts my feelings a little bit. I won't lie. I believe I've gone out of my way to state what I believe is true in the case, why I believe it, where I'm getting my information and that I could be completely wrong because I don't know all the details. I have gone out of my way to explain that I believe she's innocent because, based on what I've seen, there's no real evidence to suggest otherwise. Not because she's an American abroad.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like exactly the opposite is true. That brits believe she's guilty purely because the victim is british and you want desperately to see someone pay, whether it's the right person or not.

The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt? being American or British doesn't mean you can't be guilty because you are arrested in a foreign country. Brits are often guilty of thinking every Brit arrested abroad has been fitted up by the local police so it's not unusual thinking but the white washing of a drug taking slapper is a bit more than some of us can stomach. she 'may' be innocent of the murder but painting her as an innocent chaste girl is a step to far for most of us. this is the girl who while her friend was in the morgue with a slashed throat did cartwheels around the police station, snogged her boyfriend's face off, laughed and joked and generally behaved like it was all a great joke.

Innocent and chaste aren't the descriptors anyone I know would use for her. I've tried to articulate the general perception I have, but I don't believe you're taking the time to understand. Immature, naive, in over her head. I'd use all of those. I'd argue that just about every young British or American soldier abroad has been involved in nights where things get out of control. Fortunately, they seldom go completely awry, but I've awoken after a bender and thought, "Whew. We were lucky." More than a couple times, I got in trouble, because the British soldiers were nuts, and I thought I could hang... I couldn't.

Point isn't that she's innocent and chaste. Point IS that she was into things she shouldn't have been, but that doesn't make her an occultist murderer.

As the Kercher family said, there's still questions that need answering.

And there always will be as long as they believe that Guerde wasn't alone. But that's a deeply personal bias, and I don't blame them a bit (right or wrong).

 

[Empty Hands]

The Italian courts are considered corrupt becuase they convicted her yet they also released her so perhaps now they aren't corrupt?

Oh, forgot to address this one. The Italian courts are considered corrupt because their entire government is shot through with corruption from top to bottom. Nothing to do with Knox either, this is objective fact. It is a major problem that Italy has that even the Italians recognize. According to one business report by an Italian business group, the Mafia accounts for 7% of the GDP!

 

[Tez3]

ahhh no... I would not take what yuo read on MT or any other place or see on TV as what Americans think, don't forget Bill's post. may Americans simply do not care others thing she did it and some think she didn't. I would not take the word of the vocal minority as to what Americans think.

Lets put it this way, do all in Britan think just like you and share your beliefs and opinions on everything... I guessing no.



Again for some yes...others no...but here is an interesting thing that may be in play here. This may be a media hype thing...meaning what a lot of people see and hear in movies they tend to beleive and Italy is not always portrayed in a positive way when it comes to law and order. Same goes for other countries as well. Hey my wife was convinced all Americans did was hop from bed to bed and all were rich based soley on Movies that portrayed Americans as such in China.



Absolutly.


I do have a question for you as it applies to the BritishLegal system and the Italian one as well

In America once arrested the defendant is considered innocent until provenguilty and the burden of proof is on the prosecution in other countries it isreversed "Guilty until proven innocent, China is one of these as are awhole lot of countries.

I was under the impression the Britain was also Guilty until proven innocent,am I correct?

And would you know what Italy was?

These are simply asked out of curiosity by the way

English law is innocent until proven guilty, it's been that since the 11th century. Scottish and Welsh law is also innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. I believe you got this law from us.

I believe in Italy the presumption is that it's guilty before innocent.

 

[Carol]

What is coming across more and more is that Americans believe Knox is innocent purely because she was an American in a foreign country.

I don't know if that is necessarily the sentiment here.

We're not a people to think murderers should walk, the recent trial (and acquittal) of Casey Anthony has that sentiment fresh in our minds. We also understand the pain of losing an American to a crime abroad, including when the accused is a foreigner from wealthy means. 6 years have passed since Natalee Holloway's disappearance in Aruba, presumably murdered by Dutchman Joran van der Sloot, yet we all remember their names...partly because the story has never really gone away.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your countryman

 

[Steve]

Tez, I missed this post from you. I just want to point out a couple of things.

Reasons Knox got off according to investigative journalist and co-author of 'Darkness Descending: The murder of Meredith Kercher'


PR campaign
Knox's family hired a Seattle public relations specialist, David Marriot, who for months repeatedly plugged the line: "Amanda will get out, it's a done deal." This created a self-propagating media frenzy, which - in the end - helped convince a largely sceptical Italian media.

If she's innocent, isn't this a good thing? Couple of things on this one. First, my impression is that the Italian media was very hostile towards her. From what I've seen, so has the media in the UK. I understand it, even if I don't agree with it. I mean, it's completely understandable to me that in Britain, home of the victim, a desire to have justice done is big. But if justice has already been done, with the conviction of Guerde, and the family of the victim still sees a need for someone to pay... that can lead to the opposite of justice and essentially create yet another victim.

Second, what's been put out here is that, had the media not been involved, the conviction would quietly have been upheld and she'd quietly languish for a decade or two in an Italian prison for a crime she didn't commit.

Supporters' presence
The massive presence of friends and family in Perugia in support fuelled the "Amanda is innocent" campaign. Italians have claimed that because Knox is American, the case has been handled differently, so as not to offend the US.

Whether or not Amanda had supporters has nothing to do with her being innocent or guilty. If, as it appears, the evidence is so flimsy, wouldn't it be reasonable for people to support her release, as they genuinely believe her to be innocent?

Appeals process
The Italian appeals process offers more guarantees to defendants than any other legal system in the world, whereby only the weakest evidence is treated, not the whole case. Knox's team only had to attack the DNA evidence against her to undermine the whole edifice of the original trial. Italy has one of lowest prison populations in the world because of its lenient appeals process.

The DNA evidence was central to the conviction, but as was brought out in the appeal, it was contaminated and unusable. If Amanda Knox is innocent, isn't it a good thing that flawed evidence was brought to light?

Favourable political climate
Silvio Berlusconi's government vowed to tame his country's fiercely independent system of magistrates - one that had been bolstered to fight the mafia. The more the government shows the magistracy to be incompetent the better for Mr Berlusconi. The ministry of justice is poised to investigate what went wrong.

Tez, I missed this post from you.

 

[Tez3]

I certainly can judge. Masturbation is a near-universal human behavior. So is having sex. Neither has anything to do with being a murderer. That is true and thus the "evidence" is irrelevant and prejudicial in any justice system. I'm not going to throw up my hands and refuse to judge when, let's say, a Saudi court throws a woman in jail for driving. Wrong is wrong.



Who painted her as an "innocent chaste girl"? The question is whether or not she committed murder. Her chastity or lack thereof has nothing to do with that question. Nor does taking drugs. Nor is being a slapper.

It's pretty telling that you describe her in such negative, judgmental terms. Slut (slapper). Druggie. And so forth. It sounds like you want her punished because you disagree with her personal choices. Describing her like that does little to dispel the suspicion that many want to see her punished because she is a young, pretty sexually active woman (since when does having sex with your boyfriend make you a slut?).

And again, her personal choices have nothing to do with the question of whether or not she is a murderer. Completely irrelevant. Prejudicial to even bring up. Hence the criticism.



Again, irrelevant.

However, you're telling me you've never come across people that respond to stress and tragedy in odd or inappropriate ways? I've met people that laugh or smile when under great stress. I've met people that laughed when a relative died. People are different. Sometimes people respond in a way that you would not.

That doesn't make Knox innocent. But it also doesn't make her guilty.

A slapper is certainly not the same as a slut! Two different things. You are putting words into my mouth there.

You can decide that bringing up such things are irelevant, I was pointing out that the Italian court system is different from ours, it's an adversarial system where such things are brought up. Whether you or I agree that it's pertinent means nothing, the Italian justice system works that way, as I said before it's very different from what we are used to. Another example is that a defendant has no right to have a lawyer present when they are questioned, something unthinkable in our systems.

Her PR team is portraying her as a lost little girl who is being fitted up by the Italians and she hasn't made any bad choices or acted strangely. She admits being off her head on drugs and she was known for sleeping with many men not just her boyfriend. The relevance of this in the Italian court's eyes is that it was alleged she was playing a sex game that went wrong hence all the references and questions about her sex life.

This is an interesting view of the media attention the case garnered.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/04/02/how-the-media-got-knox-wrong.html

The PR team at work and the cost to Knox's father.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/the_vicious_destruction_of_curt_knox_the_father/

 

[Tez3]

I didn't say it was people on MT who were coming across as I described, I had already mentioned about the comments on the on line media.

Not all Italian courts are corrupt, the dead prosecutors and judges, murdered by the Mafia for their honesty are proof of that.

Actually the Brits don't believe Knox is guilty just because we want her to be.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111003132142AAc2HdR
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uliano-Mignini-appeal-acquittal.html#comments

 

[Steve]

I didn't say it was people on MT who were coming across as I described, I had already mentioned about the comments on the on line media.

Not all Italian courts are corrupt, the dead prosecutors and judges, murdered by the Mafia for their honesty are proof of that.

Actually the Brits don't believe Knox is guilty just because we want her to be.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111003132142AAc2HdR
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uliano-Mignini-appeal-acquittal.html#comments

Tez... do you not see that these articles are as clearly biased as any meant to portray her as an innocent victim?

Tez. I've seen a lot of hit pieces on her alleging that she's being painted as an innocent. But I haven't been able to find any of the articles that paint her as a perfect, pure, chaste, innocent. I've seen articles that clearly outline why the case against her is wrong and she should be acquitted. But I can't find anything that paints her as an angel.

Could you find some of those articles for me? I'd like to read them.

 

[Tez3]

Tez... do you not see that these articles are as clearly biased as any meant to portray her as an innocent victim?

Tez. I've seen a lot of hit pieces on her alleging that she's being painted as an innocent. But I haven't been able to find any of the articles that paint her as a perfect, pure, chaste, innocent. I've seen articles that clearly outline why the case against her is wrong and she should be acquitted. But I can't find anything that paints her as an angel.

Could you find some of those articles for me? I'd like to read them.

The articles I posted up showed bias on all sides not just one way or the other, I posted them to show you that ALL Brits don't want her found guilty but that opinion was divided here. These were the British ones I found not the American ones.

One of the articles where Knox is portrayed as sweet and innocent is an interview with her mother, the PR team took their instructions from her and this is the portrait of Knox that they have put out. Of course it's understandable that they do this they are being paid by the family who in turn of course want their daughter back.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4113087.ece

 

[Tez3]

Steve, it's just struck me..you thought I meant the articles themselves didn't you? I actually meant the comments people had posted under them. Sorry.

 

[Steve]

Steve, it's just struck me..you thought I meant the articles themselves didn't you? I actually meant the comments people had posted under them. Sorry.

Ahh... I haven't read any of the comments. I don't know about you, but I don't give a lot of merit to a 30 word sound byte posted by someone named, "AmericanEagle4311" or "Bart." Who knows who these people are?

What I am very interested in is an actual article where the media, having been heavily influenced by the PR firm that the UK press seems to believe a smoking gun, posts an article in which Knox is painted as a young virgin, pure as newly fallen snow. I haven't seen that.

I will go back and read the comments, though. Now I'm curious.

 

[Tez3]

The Times article with the interview with Knox's mother is where the whitewash starts, understandable of course but all the same she paints her daughter as a sweet little innocent.
There's loads more comments on AOL from members there but I don't think I can post them up without also posting my login, I use AOL to get onto the internet.

there's one comment that at first glance seems silly but on reflection actually makes sense. "when will people realise not guilty doesn't mean innocent"

 

[Empty Hands]

The Times article with the interview with Knox's mother is where the whitewash starts, understandable of course but all the same she paints her daughter as a sweet little innocent.

What else would you expect?

 

[Tez3]

What else would you expect?

Er, that's why I said 'understandable' in my post! It's also what she was paying for when she engaged the PR company.