Alternative to capitalism?

[Cruentus]

Mike--what you don't seem to get is that in capitalism--the system you are advocating so strongly--there is no point at which one says that enough is enough. And if you don't think that Oprah's show exploits misery--OK, fine, what is that show all about?

Not only that, but how many "workers" are enslaved to support her lifestyle and show? How many have to kowtow to her, lest they lose their very low paying job? Similarly, how many low-waged bell-hops and maids with no health care or means to support their families work for one of the lovely Trump establishments?

This isn't the fault of Trump or Oprah per say. It is just the system of slaverly that we have created.

 

[MisterMike]

Mike--what you don't seem to get is that in capitalism--the system you are advocating so strongly--there is no point at which one says that enough is enough. And if you don't think that Oprah's show exploits misery--OK, fine, what is that show all about?

Oh gosh - people are going to think I watch it all the time or something....but anyways, I think there have been segments on the good things in life, not just the bad.

As for making enough, the good thing about capitalism is that you can choose to leave it once you do make enough, like my former employer. Sold the company and ka-ching! He's flying around in his own jet now.

Oh - and there are no slaves forced to work here in the US. At least not legally.

 

[rmcrobertson]

So flying around in your own jet and pointlessly tearing up the ozone--that's the proper goal of life?

First off, Mike, what happened to "his," company and its workers after he got his and took off?

Second off--again, there's something basic that I can't seem to get across: I never wanted to be a businessman. Yet the values you're espousing are entirely those of businessmen....who are, basically, telling us that anybody can be a success, just become one of us.

That's kinda why I mentioned is that the problem with capitalism is that it keeps insisting that business is all there is to life.

 

[MisterMike]

So flying around in your own jet and pointlessly tearing up the ozone--that's the proper goal of life?

No. The point was he made enough money to support himself and get "out" or change spots in the "system." Now he is more of a consumer.

First off, Mike, what happened to "his," company and its workers after he got his and took off?

It was bought by a larger company and some people were laid off. I know, the 'his' quote relates to 'human resources' which is kinda a dirty word in the business sense.

Second off--again, there's something basic that I can't seem to get across: I never wanted to be a businessman. Yet the values you're espousing are entirely those of businessmen....who are, basically, telling us that anybody can be a success, just become one of us.

Which values? The worker bee can save - granted it will take longer - but still has the opportunity. Not in all jobs, but the type of work you do is dependant on education (among other things I'm sure). A value of capitalism is that you can make enough money to set yourself up for life.

I know where this is leading because next you're going to say that more money should be paid to those worker bees rather than to the top.

That's kinda why I mentioned is that the problem with capitalism is that it keeps insisting that business is all there is to life.

It's a type of market but there are many more things in life. Night-time programming and advertisements would lead you to believe differently but if you have your values centered on something other than material items you're better off than most.

I'll even add to the list of problems by saying it can keep people pidgeon-holed for life if they do not know ways to move up. But what happened to personal responsibility and why all the blame on capitalism? Is big business keeping people where they are?

Sincerely,

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, Mike, but it won't wash. Re-read your post: he started a business, then became a success--so now, "he's more of a consumer." You didn't mention that he'd started a charity, or become a better man, or devoted himself to martial arts--you said that a) he made money, b) he's now spending it. That's how capitalism works, for better or for worse: those are the choices. Anything you want, so long as it's one of these two things.

Further, you tell me that for him to, "make it," others lost their jobs. Not that they weren't good workers, not that the company went belly-up, none of that: that he sold out, and they got screwed. I can pretty much guarantee you, furthermore, that he knew perfectly well that this would happen, in advance. I can also pretty much guarantee you that whatever this company did, they will now do it progressively worse and worse, because the Big Guys who bought them out will squeeze as much profit as possible. That's how acquisitions work.

"A value of capitalism is that you can make enough money to set yourself up in life?" Sure, if you're on top, and you're lucky. The "worker bees?" C'mahn--do they get set for life? Or even retirement, these days? Just by hard work? One of the differneces between capitalist theory and reality is that the theory says work hard, you get ahead--the reality is, work hard, so the boss can sell the company and fly around in a jet.

"Move up?" That's what, "personal responsibility," means nowadays? Hate to tell ya, but it is logically impossible for everybody to "move up," what with corporations and businesses being shaped like pyramids--many, many Indians, a very few chiefs.

If you have your values centered on something other than the material, Mike, you cannot possibly be a success in the terms you're advocating.

 

[loki09789]

So flying around in your own jet and pointlessly tearing up the ozone--that's the proper goal of life?

First off, Mike, what happened to "his," company and its workers after he got his and took off?

Second off--again, there's something basic that I can't seem to get across: I never wanted to be a businessman. Yet the values you're espousing are entirely those of businessmen....who are, basically, telling us that anybody can be a success, just become one of us.

That's kinda why I mentioned is that the problem with capitalism is that it keeps insisting that business is all there is to life.

Capitolists pay local property taxes which go toward public education, so the larger/more prosperous the business the more funding toward education. If they happen to have bought one of those disgustingly extravagant houses that is in the same school district the property tax on that also goes to the school... capitolists have also on occasion to fund scholarships to give kids an extra boost toward education, and made donations to public schools of money/material.... "Carnegie Hall" was named after the famous capitolist and was a way to promote the arts to the masses.

Carnegie and Rockafeller (at least the wives of these moguls, among others) funded and staffed the original Sunday schools - which weren't really about religion but were a haven from work for kids from families that either needed them to work for food on the table or couldn't afford to get them educated.

It isn't perfect, neither are people, but these are examples of how capitolists have seen that there is more to life than 'money.' But no one can argue that it is a hell of a lot easier to appreciate education/sophistication and the arts/enlightenment on a full belly and no distractions like the bill collectors knocking on the door.....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Axly, bad news. At least in California, property taxes do not fund schools any more. There's a little creep named Howard Jarvis in our history. You might also read recent news articles on how much corporations do NOT pay that they should be paying.

And while the Carnegies et al did make some of the grants you mentioned, well, a) they did it as handouts; b) they did it to get better-trained workers; c) they did it to help keep, "the masses," in line.

Now, "they," do it for tax breaks, and as advertising for the most part.

 

[MisterMike]

Sorry, Mike, but it won't wash. Re-read your post: he started a business, then became a success--so now, "he's more of a consumer." You didn't mention that he'd started a charity, or become a better man, or devoted himself to martial arts--you said that a) he made money, b) he's now spending it. That's how capitalism works, for better or for worse: those are the choices. Anything you want, so long as it's one of these two things.

I meant he has more money to "consume" with. He puts it back into the system. When he owned the company, more money was going in to him. While at the company he donated thousands to the community. 1) Are you angry that he agreed to sell? 2) Should someone be bound to the workforce until they can no longer perform or reach a predetermined age by the government? 3) Should the new company be forced by some law to keep all the sam people on the force?

Further, you tell me that for him to, "make it," others lost their jobs. Not that they weren't good workers, not that the company went belly-up, none of that: that he sold out, and they got screwed. I can pretty much guarantee you, furthermore, that he knew perfectly well that this would happen, in advance. I can also pretty much guarantee you that whatever this company did, they will now do it progressively worse and worse, because the Big Guys who bought them out will squeeze as much profit as possible. That's how acquisitions work.

As the workers knew fully well that when they take a job they are at risk of being redeployed in these types of cases. You just never know when. The jobs being lost were not a necessity for him to make it. It was a choice of the new company. I had only been there 3 months when the aquisition was announced. I'm still there. I wonder why? There are buyouts that are meant solely to get the technology and EVERYONE is sent packin, but that wasn't the case here.

"A value of capitalism is that you can make enough money to set yourself up in life?" Sure, if you're on top, and you're lucky. The "worker bees?" C'mahn--do they get set for life? Or even retirement, these days? Just by hard work? One of the differneces between capitalist theory and reality is that the theory says work hard, you get ahead--the reality is, work hard, so the boss can sell the company and fly around in a jet.

For a small percentage. When the company sells, their shares vest..I'm know some who made out pretty well on it. Take your skills to the next place. It's impersonal, but that's competition. He didn't need to sell the company to fly around. He could a just as well quit. Worker bees work hard, but what is their overall contribution? Not all roles are equal. Education is what is of value and if the company can use you you get more. If you sweep floors you are more easily replaceable vs. if you mange network security. (Although those guys are gettin cheaper now too, hehe)

You get paid according to your abilities and what the work is worth. Sorry if you get less, but it takes longer to save for retirement. The guy with the million dollar idea doesn't need to work as long does he?

You seem to think all bosses aint worth their paychecks.

"Move up?" That's what, "personal responsibility," means nowadays? Hate to tell ya, but it is logically impossible for everybody to "move up," what with corporations and businesses being shaped like pyramids--many, many Indians, a very few chiefs.

What other shape should their be? Honestly? But you're right, you move up to a role that fits your skills or education. We don't all have the same skills. That's why the skilled go up. Someone's always gonna be at the top, and someone at the bottom. We ain't all equal after 21.

If you have your values centered on something other than the material, Mike, you cannot possibly be a success in the terms you're advocating.

Sure. Agreed. But I aint advocatin nuttin. Success in life is not only being rich. Just succes in capitalism. Is capitalism all that there is in our lives? Does it control us?

I aspire to be a successful teacher someday. Sure there is money needed for the dojo rent so I stay open but if that's all I make and I turn out good students, I think I'm successfull. Not in terms of money of course but that is not all that matters.

But they are buying a good or service from me. Hey, capitalism, on a smaller scale. But I'll never sell.

Anyways, tell me what you're drivin at here. I sense you dislike some things about capitalism. Maybe all of 'em. Is it bombing out because we are all inherently sinners and need something government enforced with less freedoms to keep us in line?

 

[loki09789]

And while the Carnegies et al did make some of the grants you mentioned, well, a) they did it as handouts; b) they did it to get better-trained workers; c) they did it to help keep, "the masses," in line.

Now, "they," do it for tax breaks, and as advertising for the most part.

And I suppose Rockafeller or one of the major moguls who was a rags to riches story handed out silver dollars to kids on the street NOT because that is exactly what he started with and was, in his mind, giving someone inspiration/support to be self made...themselves (that was clumsy).

With the tone of your rhetoric, What would you do as you dolled out the keys to your intellectual kingdom? Who would hold those keys and who would decides what it costs to "Be like you" in the pursuit of your "Cultural currency?"

I am pretty sure that the Ivy league educations that the later generations of these families are encouraged to get is because the Carnegies, Kennedys and others have no respect for education..... are we now going to discuss the privatization of Universities and Colleges? The corruption within Educational funding in higher institutions.... but that would include you as either the benificiary of said evil, or a perpetrator of innocent "intellectual newbies."

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Balder or Heimdal or whatever:

In reverse order.

a) We ARE moving toward privatizing universities and colleges. That's part of the reason they're getting so expensive. That's also why our government keeps chopping loan programs, taxing tuition rebates, etc. Two-tier educational system, dude.

b) If you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd note that again and again and again I've written something that boils down to: education should be free and accessible to everyone. My ***** is that it's not.

c) Why, you're right. Rich people like Trump LOVE us. Yassuh, massa. There's no ego involved in their charities (of course, once upon a time Americans thought that self-sufficiency and earning their way was preferable to handouts); no tax breaks; no reinforcement of their ideological position. None whatsoever.

Oh, and incidentally--other than your own prejudice and the crap that comes from the Michael Savages of the world, what exactly are you using for evidence that I plan on becoming some sort of Intellectual Czar in the New World Order? Sorry, I've no interest whatsoever in becoming the guy who, "dolled out the keys to your intellectual kingdom," which would bore me to tears.