Alternating body building and martial arts

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm trying to get you there. I realize you're confused. You're presuming that bodybuilders who under-develop some muscle groups are "less educated" than you are.

You're being condescending, and you're incorrect about what I've asserted. Neither is a good look.

 

[Steve]

You're being condescending, and you're incorrect about what I've asserted. Neither is a good look.

Edit: What you've done in the post above is essentially sidestepped the points entirely and made this all a personal judgment against me. Not very nice, and I think it's against the rules.

I allowed you to pull me into the same behavior, and so I deleted that part of the post.

Earlier, you framed the discussion around less educated and well educated body builders. I asked you what you meant and you chose to be coy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm trying to get you there. I realize you're confused. You're presuming that bodybuilders who under-develop some muscle groups are "less educated" than you are. Your logic seems pretty straightforward... why would they intentionally create muscular imbalances? It's unhealthy... ergo, surely they just don't know any better. Because (and this is the circle in your circular argument), if they knew better, surely they would address the imbalances.

But, what if they have all the same information you have, and just disagree with you? What if they know more than you do, meaning you are less educated than they, and they have made choices based on different priorities (which is to perform at a high level in their sport)? Professional bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport. Lifting heavy weights just isn't the goal. The goal of the sport is to be able to contract specific muscle groups in ways that promote an aesthetic based on an ideal that is specific to that sport. So, if excelling in the sport is your goal, having a jacked, thick, functional core like a power lifter or MMA heavyweight is counterproductive.

Think about it like this. Consider all of your statements about how folks train for different reasons, etc... and now apply that same perspective to this discussion.

I think you missed the last statement in the post you're referring to: "Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.".

He's not suggesting that all bodybuilders that do isolation don't know any better. He's saying that (informed) bodybuilders are making an active choice to focus on aesthetics rather than function. But that there are some that don't realize bodybuilding isn't necessarily functional.

If I were to liken it to MA. It's basically your argument that it's fine to not train to learn how to fight, if that's not your goal. But having someone training thinking they're learning how to fight when they're not is problematic. In the same vein, if someone wants to look aesthetically good, then body building is great. But if they think that they're getting the best functional strength from it, then it's problematic.

 

[Steve]

I think you missed the last statement in the post you're referring to: "Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.".

He's not suggesting that all bodybuilders that do isolation don't know any better. He's saying that (informed) bodybuilders are making an active choice to focus on aesthetics rather than function. But that there are some that don't realize bodybuilding isn't necessarily functional.

If I were to liken it to MA. It's basically your argument that it's fine to not train to learn how to fight, if that's not your goal. But having someone training thinking they're learning how to fight when they're not is problematic. In the same vein, if someone wants to look aesthetically good, then body building is great. But if they think that they're getting the best functional strength from it, then it's problematic.

Okay. The comment he made that led to the less/well educated part was in an earlier post: "Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. " (I added the italics)

I don't know how you read that, but it seems a little squirrelly to me. It sounds like a pretty definitive statement that MA training will (his word, not mine) supplement bodybuilding nicely. The simple point is that it may not. Depending on what that activity in MA is, it is very possible that it would be counterproductive. I think I said as much in my response.

So, in that context, we get a post that frames this as an education bit, as though this is some bit of esoteric information and not common knowledge. It's like saying, "Some less educated swimmers may not know that water is wet, and as a result, they could try and breathe it. Well educated swimmers are typically aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Okay. The comment he made that led to the less/well educated part was in an earlier post: "Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. " (I added the italics)

I don't know how you read that, but it seems a little squirrelly to me. It sounds like a pretty definitive statement that MA training will (his word, not mine) supplement bodybuilding nicely. The simple point is that it may not. Depending on what that activity in MA is, it is very possible that it would be counterproductive. I think I said as much in my response.

So, in that context, we get a post that frames this as an education bit, as though this is some bit of esoteric information and not common knowledge. It's like saying, "Some less educated swimmers may not know that water is wet, and as a result, they could try and breathe it. Well educated swimmers are typically aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it."

Regarding that first part, I agree. May would be the better word there personally, since I don't know enough about bodybuilding to make a judgment. And reducing some of the worst weaknesses is only weaknesses from an MA perspective to begin with. I also agree that it can be counterproductive-I can see how building the wrong muscle in MA can mess with the ratio that you're going for in bodybuilding.

I do disagree that it's common knowledge that bodybuilders are building primarily for aesthetics. It should be, but I've known enough people who look at them and make comments indicating otherwise, so that information is important to let someone know getting into the sport, and if they don't know it they haven't been informed yet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Edit: What you've done in the post above is essentially sidestepped the points entirely and made this all a personal judgment against me. Not very nice, and I think it's against the rules.

I allowed you to pull me into the same behavior, and so I deleted that part of the post.

Earlier, you framed the discussion around less educated and well educated body builders. I asked you what you meant and you chose to be coy.

What I did in the post you quoted was point out that you were putting words in my mouth, and in a condescending manner. You quite literally ascribed to me a point that is in contrast to things I said in one of the earlier posts you quoted. So I sidestepped only a strawman.

I wasn't coy at all about what I meant by more and less educated. Those terms are relative to one another. Some folks have more information behind their practices, while others have less. This is a trusim across all endeavors I've ever witnessed or been party to.

If you had read my post to understand what I was saying, rather than what appears to have been a reading to look for something to disagree with (because you're disagreeing with something not in those posts), we wouldn't be here. You seem more and more often lately to read my posts with the assumption that I'm misinformed and/or I believe everyone else is.

 

[Steve]

Regarding that first part, I agree. May would be the better word there personally, since I don't know enough about bodybuilding to make a judgment. And reducing some of the worst weaknesses is only weaknesses from an MA perspective to begin with. I also agree that it can be counterproductive-I can see how building the wrong muscle in MA can mess with the ratio that you're going for in bodybuilding.

Cool.

I do disagree that it's common knowledge that bodybuilders are building primarily for aesthetics. It should be, but I've known enough people who look at them and make comments indicating otherwise, so that information is important to let someone know getting into the sport, and if they don't know it they haven't been informed yet.

Sure and this is a great way to make exactly my point. To a lay person, it may not be obvious. So, the trap to avoid is presuming that since it isn't obvious to me (or you or someone else) as a lay person, it's not common knowledge within that community. It's precisely when @gpseymour started projecting his lay perceptions onto people within the sport (i.e., I don't understand, so surely some folks within the community must not, too.) that he went off the rails.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Cool.

Sure and this is a great way to make exactly my point. To a lay person, it may not be obvious. So, the trap to avoid is presuming that since it isn't obvious to me (or you or someone else) as a lay person, it's not common knowledge within that community. It's precisely when @gpseymour started projecting his lay perceptions onto people within the sport (i.e., I don't understand, so surely some folks within the community must not, too.) that he went off the rails.

That wasn't an assumption. I had some good friends back in the day (lost touch long since) who were into bodybuilding, and they worked out at the same gym I did. They had been educated at least to some extent (probably by the guy who got them into it, but that is an assumption). They warned about the advice I'd get from some of the other bodybuilders, including that some of them weren't aware of the difference between bodybuilding and strength training. And in working out around these guys and hearing them talk, I heard first-hand that some of them weren't aware of some of these issues.

I've had a chance since then to train MA with one serious bodybuilder, who reiterated some of those same points years later.

The assumption in this is that you assumed I had no real information, and was just projecting.

 

[Steve]

What I did in the post you quoted was point out that you were putting words in my mouth, and in a condescending manner. You quite literally ascribed to me a point that is in contrast to things I said in one of the earlier posts you quoted. So I sidestepped only a strawman.

I wasn't coy at all about what I meant by more and less educated. Those terms are relative to one another. Some folks have more information behind their practices, while others have less. This is a trusim across all endeavors I've ever witnessed or been party to.

If you had read my post to understand what I was saying, rather than what appears to have been a reading to look for something to disagree with (because you're disagreeing with something not in those posts), we wouldn't be here. You seem more and more often lately to read my posts with the assumption that I'm misinformed and/or I believe everyone else is.

You're right. It's all me. When I literally quoted your own words, that was putting words in your mouth. Come on, man.

 

[Steve]

That wasn't an assumption. I had some good friends back in the day (lost touch long since) who were into bodybuilding, and they worked out at the same gym I did. They had been educated at least to some extent (probably by the guy who got them into it, but that is an assumption). They warned about the advice I'd get from some of the other bodybuilders, including that some of them weren't aware of the difference between bodybuilding and strength training. And in working out around these guys and hearing them talk, I heard first-hand that some of them weren't aware of some of these issues.

I've had a chance since then to train MA with one serious bodybuilder, who reiterated some of those same points years later.

The assumption in this is that you assumed I had no real information, and was just projecting.

You were a competitive bodybuilder? I really do think we have in mind two different universes of people here. I'm talking about folks who train for and compete in the sport of bodybuilding.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're right. It's all me. When I literally quoted your own words, that was putting words in your mouth. Come on, man.

Yeah. You quoted my post and ignored the part that had already metioned that informed bodybuilders exist.

It'd be like me doing this:

You're right.

So, you're saying I'm right?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You were a competitive bodybuilder? I really do think we have in mind two different universes of people here. I'm talking about folks who train for and compete in the sport of bodybuilding.

I was never competitive. Show me where I made any kind of claim to that.

See, you are doing it again.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I workout with weights but I try to make the exercise as functional as possible when possible and if possible. I incorporate weight lifting as part of my martial arts training.

Flexibility has to be one of the major focuses of your training. As the body gets more muscle it will naturally try to restrict movement according to how you lift weights. Functional strength building allows you to maintain a lot of the flexibility that you'll need in martil arts. Make stretching a primary activity and focus and you should do well with the two.

 

[john_newman]

Join a gym that is near to your home..!! Ask your friends to join you also..!! That'll make you gain interest in The Gym.
Train like your Coach asks you to do. Also keep reading Blogs of Body Building and Martial Arts.!!

 

[Steve]

Yeah. You quoted my post and ignored the part that had already metioned that informed bodybuilders exist.

It'd be like me doing this:


So, you're saying I'm right?

I don't have the energy for this. Yes, you're right. If it helps you sleep tonight, by all means.

I was never competitive. Show me where I made any kind of claim to that.

See, you are doing it again.

I asked the question because I didn't know one way or the other. I can't show you where you've answered a question that hadn't yet been asked.

And why did I ask the question? Because "I really do think we have in mind two different universes of people here. I'm talking about folks who train for and compete in the sport of bodybuilding." (That last part is the rest of the post I don't think you read, before you started pointing the finger at me for not taking the time to understand you).

I went back to doublecheck my first post in this exchange, and I was pretty clear that I was talking about competitive bodybuilding. So, if you have in mind people other than competitive bodybuilders, I think you're the one who's not reading for comprehension, jumping to conclusions, and being painfully condescending about it. My mistake from the beginning is presuming you were responding to what I actually wrote. My bad. But now that I know that, it makes sense that we are talking about two different groups of people.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just a reminder (to all involved) before one of the non-involved mods comes along and reads these-focus on the post/subject, not the other posters.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sure and this is a great way to make exactly my point. To a lay person, it may not be obvious. So, the trap to avoid is presuming that since it isn't obvious to me (or you or someone else) as a lay person, it's not common knowledge within that community. It's precisely when @gpseymour started projecting his lay perceptions onto people within the sport (i.e., I don't understand, so surely some folks within the community must not, too.) that he went off the rails.

At some point though, most people practicing a sport don't have the common knowledge of the community, and need to be given it. Normally when they're at the beginner level, which I'd guess is where the OP himself is, based on his post.

 

[Steve]

At some point though, most people practicing a sport don't have the common knowledge of the community, and need to be given it. Normally when they're at the beginner level, which I'd guess is where the OP himself is, based on his post.

As I said to @gpseymour, I made a comment about competitive bodybuilders. Things like what we're talking about are as foundational in that sport as the guard is in BJJ. You say "pull guard" to a lay person, and he or she may not know what you mean. But within BJJ, it intrinsic. You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed. Suggesting that there are competitive jiu jitiero out there who don't know what "pull guard" means seems really weird. Right?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As I said to @gpseymour, I made a comment about competitive bodybuilders. Things like what we're talking about are as foundational in that sport as the guard is in BJJ. You say "pull guard" to a lay person, and he or she may not know what you mean. But within BJJ, it intrinsic. You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed. Suggesting that there are competitive jiu jitiero out there who don't know what "pull guard" means seems really weird. Right?

That's fair. I'd agree with you in all that. I don't know enough about competitive bodybuilding to state if it's that intrinsic so I'll take your word for it. Even with that though, the initial OP stated that OP wants to do bodybuilding but also wants to do martial arts. To me that suggests he/she's not got that foundational knowledge yet. It would be like someone saying they want to do jujitsu, but also want to do (something I can't think of that involves shins), and warning them about shin/footburns. Anyone within the sport already knows that those are things and how to deal with it if needed, but it's a surprise and useful info for those still looking into it.

Again, not addressing the rest about whether or not average competitive bodybuilders do/don't know that, or any assumptions that have been made that they do/don't. So not addressing this line: "You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed."

Since I've got no clue how accurate the comparison is for bodybuilding. Just stating how it relates to the OP as important information for him to know. Beyond that and further arguments I can't really say much.

 

[isshinryuronin]

they have made choices based on different priorities (which is to perform at a high level in their sport)? Professional bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport. Lifting heavy weights just isn't the goal.

Well said and equally applies to MA. I personally don't agree 100% as I think if the self-defense aspect of MA is abandoned in favor of its other benefits, MA as a traditional art is degraded. That's just my opinion. But while bodybuilding is not designed for pure strength building, a bodybuilder is still stronger than one who does not weight train at all.

So it is with MA. While one may not get into it and train for its fighting skills, but for the various other benefits, they will still be better off than most untrained people in a self-defense situation. Even soccer mom boxing gym classes will give some SD benefit to them.

(My main goal in weight training for the past few years was simply to stay physically functional into my 70's and hopefully 80's. But as I said earlier, my karate also greatly benefited.)

I think the key is to understand exactly the limitations and benefits of how you undertake the activity, so the choice is really a choice, and not the result of marketing or ignorance. That way you go into it with your eyes open with no misconception of what you are accomplishing. The individual's choice may differ from ours, but we all have unique goals that for us are a priority.