Alternating body building and martial arts

[Steve]

Agreed. That's why I said they weren't necessarily in conflict.

Agreed. That's why I said could be in conflict.

Being serious for a moment, I felt like I needed to clarify because you said this: "Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. "

It really sounded (sounds) like you think bodybuilders neglect some muscle groups on accident, but it is often intentional. That's the point. Where there is active neglect of some muscle groups, there is a conflict between the goals of one activity and the other. For example, a competitive body builder often wants their waist to be as narrow as possible, but strengthening their core causes those muscle groups to grow. So, they will intentionally neglect them, putting their bodybuilding at odds with any martial arts activity.

Or to paraphrase Bas Rutten, we're building fighter bodies, not beach bodies.

 

[dvcochran]

Interesting. I saw some issues with folks not learning to control properly (not the right connection to body movement, etc.) when they started with enough strength to easily muscle a technique. But I never saw a negative impact when someone added strength training. I do think the NGA development of aiki is probably not on par with what happens in Daito-ryu, so that may be part of the difference.

The one bodybuilder I trained with mostly had flexibility and ROM issues.

I have seen that. I have also seen gymnast, who looked as ripped as body builders who were incredibly flexible. It is all in how you exercise and practice I think. Of course, genetics play a big part.

 

[Steve]

I have seen that. I have also seen gymnast, who looked as ripped as body builders who were incredibly flexible. It is all in how you exercise and practice I think. Of course, genetics play a big part.

Somebody had better tell JCVD that too many muscles makes you less flexible. Maybe it was the cocaine that kept him flexible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. That's why I said could be in conflict.

Being serious for a moment, I felt like I needed to clarify because you said this: "Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. "

It really sounded (sounds) like you think bodybuilders neglect some muscle groups on accident, but it is often intentional. That's the point. Where there is active neglect of some muscle groups, there is a conflict between the goals of one activity and the other. For example, a competitive body builder often wants their waist to be as narrow as possible, but strengthening their core causes those muscle groups to grow. So, they will intentionally neglect them, putting their bodybuilding at odds with any martial arts activity.

Or to paraphrase Bas Rutten, we're building fighter bodies, not beach bodies.

Not sure what about my brief statement led you to that conclusion, Steve. Yes, they de-emphasize some muscles so neighboring muscles stand out better.

Some of them (the less-informed) aren't aware of the risks behind that, where they're leaving some joints poorly supported. And sometimes it's not even a conscious choice to neglect (again, among the less-informed) - the muscles being neglected simply don't show well, so aren't worked much. Which is probably fine as long as you're doing highly isolated action. But when they try to use the strength they've built for something else, they are more likely to get injured. The more rounded exertion of heavy grappling, for instance, tends to build those support muscles they neglect.

Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have seen that. I have also seen gymnast, who looked as ripped as body builders who were incredibly flexible. It is all in how you exercise and practice I think. Of course, genetics play a big part.

Very much so. Gymnasts use their ROM on a regular basis, and exert the support muscles. And they don't have the over-emphasized muscles that keep arms from setting in some positions.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Somebody had better tell JCVD that too many muscles makes you less flexible. Maybe it was the cocaine that kept him flexible.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

my very minimal bodyweight training still messes up with my Daito ryu aikijujutsu.

The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without MA training, each spring will be compressed and released separately. With MA training, all 3 springs will be compressed at the same time, and also be released at the same time.

This is the opposite of the "muscle group isolation". The more that you train muscle group isolation, the less that your body will be functioned as one single unit.

 

[dvcochran]

View attachment 27453

Awesome woodwork though!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Somebody had better tell JCVD that too many muscles makes you less flexible. Maybe it was the cocaine that kept him flexible.

Not sure about this. The more leg muscle that I have developed, the harder it is for me to stretch like this.

 

[_Simon_]

Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses (bodybuilders sometimes ignore muscles that don't "show" well). If the OP is referring to strength training, there's no real conflict, at all. Even if isolation is used in some cases, it's usually to focus on a particular weakness.

Less-isolated strength exercises of any sort should benefit MA training.

Totally agree. There's also a strange myth that bodybuilding is all about just doing isolation exercises, very untrue!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Awesome woodwork though!

Monument to Jean-Claude Van Damme (Azerbaijan)2021

Vandam village of Gabala district of Azerbaijan is now a new home for a statue of Jean-Claude Van Damme.

ati.az

 

[_Simon_]

View attachment 27453

It also turned him bronze!!

Edit: OH didn't realise it was wood... ok well, it also turned him woody!!

 

[_Simon_]

The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without MA training, each spring will be compressed and released separately. With MA training, all 3 springs will be compressed at the same time, and also be released at the same time.

This is the opposite of the "muscle group isolation". The more that you train muscle group isolation, the less that your body will be functioned as one single unit.

But there are actually many times in which a more isolated approach can help feel the connection better and move more efficiently. Eg doing specific lat training and focusing on the mind-muscle connection has helped me immensely in the elbow-hip connection, releasing too much "top-heavy" tension specifically on top of my shoulders (keeping my movement coming from "underneath" my arms instead of too high up in upper body), and a connection to my centre and helping to engage those muscles more intimately connected there.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It also turned him bronze!!

Edit: OH didn't realise it was wood... ok well, it also turned him woody!!

I don't know what it's made of, but it's on the same level of awesome as this tshirt, artist unknown.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses

I've been regularly hitting the weights 3 days/wk for about 50 min/day for a few years (and on and mostly off for a few decades). I'm not into bodybuilding (at my age, no amount of workout is going to make me a beach bunny magnet) nor am I really working for strength. I do several exercises for each muscle group to get all the angles covered at 12-15 reps each. (I used to go a little heavier at 8-10 reps).

That said, my karate is more powerful than ever. Much of that is due to finally mastering the technique and, as Kung Fu Wang terms it, "body unification." (Mental attitude in execution also plays a part!) Only took me 50 years! But I feel that a good chunk of that is my weight training. I don't have the kinesthetic background of some others here, so can't explain why, but my gut tells me it's true.

Muscles are good, but to put them to use, you need an effective platform. That's where MA principles of movement and power come in. So, if we're talking about MA effectiveness, a goodly number of elements combine in the chemistry of it. It's a kind of alchemy: science + art resulting in more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Steve]

Not sure what about my brief statement led you to that conclusion, Steve. Yes, they de-emphasize some muscles so neighboring muscles stand out better.

Some of them (the less-informed) aren't aware of the risks behind that, where they're leaving some joints poorly supported. And sometimes it's not even a conscious choice to neglect (again, among the less-informed) - the muscles being neglected simply don't show well, so aren't worked much. Which is probably fine as long as you're doing highly isolated action. But when they try to use the strength they've built for something else, they are more likely to get injured. The more rounded exertion of heavy grappling, for instance, tends to build those support muscles they neglect.

Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.

Less educated? Well educated? What are you basing that on?

 

[dvcochran]

I've been regularly hitting the weights 3 days/wk for about 50 min/day for a few years (and on and mostly off for a few decades). I'm not into bodybuilding (at my age, no amount of workout is going to make me a beach bunny magnet) nor am I really working for strength. I do several exercises for each muscle group to get all the angles covered at 12-15 reps each. (I used to go a little heavier at 8-10 reps).

That said, my karate is more powerful than ever. Much of that is due to finally mastering the technique and, as Kung Fu Wang terms it, "body unification." (Mental attitude in execution also plays a part!) Only took me 50 years! But I feel that a good chunk of that is my weight training. I don't have the kinesthetic background of some others here, so can't explain why, but my gut tells me it's true.

Muscles are good, but to put them to use, you need an effective platform. That's where MA principles of movement and power come in. So, if we're talking about MA effectiveness, a goodly number of elements combine in the chemistry of it. It's a kind of alchemy: science + art resulting in more than the sum of its parts.

That was the best "cookies on the bottom shelf" explanation of combining weight training with MA's I think I have ever heard.
A person could spend hours explaining the particulars but why do that when you already said it so elegantly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Totally agree. There's also a strange myth that bodybuilding is all about just doing isolation exercises, very untrue!

I'm no expert, by any stretch, but back in the day some of the bodybuilders who went to the gym I went to definitely favored isolation for arms, and to a lesser extent the upper trunk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Less educated? Well educated? What are you basing that on?

I'm not even sure what you're asking, Steve. Folks with less information have some things they aren't aware of.

 

[Steve]

I'm not even sure what you're asking, Steve. Folks with less information have some things they aren't aware of.

I'm trying to get you there. I realize you're confused. You're presuming that bodybuilders who under-develop some muscle groups are "less educated" than you are. Your logic seems pretty straightforward... why would they intentionally create muscular imbalances? It's unhealthy... ergo, surely they just don't know any better. Because (and this is the circle in your circular argument), if they knew better, surely they would address the imbalances.

But, what if they have all the same information you have, and just disagree with you? What if they know more than you do, meaning you are less educated than they, and they have made choices based on different priorities (which is to perform at a high level in their sport)? Professional bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport. Lifting heavy weights just isn't the goal. The goal of the sport is to be able to contract specific muscle groups in ways that promote an aesthetic based on an ideal that is specific to that sport. So, if excelling in the sport is your goal, having a jacked, thick, functional core like a power lifter or MMA heavyweight is counterproductive.

Think about it like this. Consider all of your statements about how folks train for different reasons, etc... and now apply that same perspective to this discussion.