All martial arts are ruined by their hubris

[Tony Dismukes]

I think a lot of us think that should have happened by now... but it hasn't. This is an exercise for the student. You can change masters or change arts... but you will never get it until you go beyond copying. This is the students responsibility.

I never said that you should dictate how the class goes, or even ask for him to change how class goes. If he changes how class goes, to cover this for you, you are still just copying. The piece you are missing only comes from exploring and experimenting, trying to figure it out for yourself. No one can give that to you. You need to take time outside of class, as I said, a few minutes before or after. Or find a different venue or a different club. Meet a class mate down at the park to train on your own and set up these drills. Its the only way you are going to learn what you are copying.

The instructor can't give the student the answers for the "Ha" and "Ri" stages, but they can structure things to give students more opportunities and encouragement to do their exploring and experimenting. If not, then it does come down to finding time and training partners outside of class. The first is under the student's control, but the latter can be difficult.

 

[pdg]

Basically, the Shu stage is where you copy. This is learning the katas or forms. The Ha stage is where you diverge from the kata and start to make it your own. The process of learning how and where to diverge as well as why, is the important bit, as it helps you understand better your art. Ri is where you throw away the kata.

Thanks.

I would personally not advocate the throwing away of the kata - more along the lines of re-evaluate your expectations of what it can do for you.

I appear to be in all 3 stages

My practice of the patterns/kata is copying, fitting into the format and trying to get myself into the 'shape' of it. They are really performance pieces as much as anything, but there's a lot to be taken from them if you are of a mind to.

I diverge too though, I'll run them forward and backward, I'll alter transitions, I'll switch moves about, I'll take kata from other arts and reinterpret them for me.

I also work completely outside them, take the lessons they've provided and apply elsewhere.

 

[pdg]

No one can give that to you. You need to take time outside of class, as I said, a few minutes before or after. Or find a different venue or a different club. Meet a class mate down at the park to train on your own and set up these drills. Its the only way you are going to learn what you are copying.

Just don't repeat what is done in class if you want to expand.

If the one step in class always uses the same attack, change it (outside class). Use different attacks.

Don't agree on attacks beforehand. To use the one step format stand facing each other and one attack - with anything that springs to mind.

Then defend.

 

[wab25]

I would personally not advocate the throwing away of the kata - more along the lines of re-evaluate your expectations of what it can do for you.

I would encourage you to read the article I linked to, instead of relying on my basic summary. The article has a good discussion on what "throwing away" or "discarding" kata is. In fact this whole process is why we have kata. The problem is that most westerners went over there, copied some kata, got a black belt and came home without going through the process. They thought the kata was the art... many people still think that way. The kata is important, and has a place in all three stages.

 

[skribs]

You can change masters or change arts

This is a criticism I have of the art, but not a reason to quit. I'm still learning a lot in other areas. This is just one area where the training isn't up to where I want it to be.

 

[frank raud]

I'm not the master. I don't have the authority to dictate how classes go.

Sounds like you do not and will not get what you are looking for out of your current arts, under your current teacher. I must admit I was fortunate enough that my first martial arts instructor organizes large multi style conventions, and exposed me and all his students to other schools of jiu jitsu, judo, karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, bjj and FMA. Many teachers wont do that. When I switched to judo, most of the people I trained with had no interest in how other martial arts did things, they saw themselves as judoka. They were very skilled at what they did, but weren't concerned about how to defeat a different style of martial art.

 

[skribs]

Sounds like you do not and will not get what you are looking for out of your current arts, under your current teacher. I must admit I was fortunate enough that my first martial arts instructor organizes large multi style conventions, and exposed me and all his students to other schools of jiu jitsu, judo, karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, bjj and FMA. Many teachers wont do that. When I switched to judo, most of the people I trained with had no interest in how other martial arts did things, they saw themselves as judoka. They were very skilled at what they did, but weren't concerned about how to defeat a different style of martial art.

Part of the problem is that our classes are an hour long. And if you eschew any elective content, the core curriculum at my level would probably take 3 hours to get through. When you add in drills and WT sparring, that number gets even worse.

So it's not that I'm not learning. It's that there's this one other thing I wish we had time for, but we don't.

 

[pdg]

I would encourage you to read the article I linked to, instead of relying on my basic summary. The article has a good discussion on what "throwing away" or "discarding" kata is. In fact this whole process is why we have kata. The problem is that most westerners went over there, copied some kata, got a black belt and came home without going through the process. They thought the kata was the art... many people still think that way. The kata is important, and has a place in all three stages.

I had a scan over it, probably read it better later (although I'll have to copy the text out of the terrible format it's presented in on my phone to make it almost comfortable...)

I think that often nowadays, the student has to take their own responsibility for anything past the copy stage (and maybe a little tiny bit of the divergence stage).

Having classes, especially with many students at different levels, makes it very difficult for a teacher to go any further than getting the group to copy. Going deeper than that takes commitment and understanding on both sides, which many just don't have.

I think it's possible for the student to do this almost alone - certainly modern access to information helps a bit here.

 

[pdg]

Part of the problem is that our classes are an hour long. And if you eschew any elective content, the core curriculum at my level would probably take 3 hours to get through. When you add in drills and WT sparring, that number gets even worse.

So it's not that I'm not learning. It's that there's this one other thing I wish we had time for, but we don't.

I may be misinterpreting, but...

It comes across as though you expect everything to be passed to you (not saying you're not putting in the effort to learn).

In almost every academic endeavour the same thing happens a lot - someone learns a subject and is completely stumped with a real world problem because it was never covered in class. I saw a lot of that in IT.

I hate the term "outside the box", but it's apt here.

The class setting is the box.

If you never get your mind outside of that, it will have no room to expand.

Trying to fit the curriculum into a class is just not going to happen - I'm 2nd kup, and just running through everything to that level would fill a few classes.

But you don't have to go through the curriculum every time, that's the whole point.

 

[skribs]

I may be misinterpreting, but...

It comes across as though you expect everything to be passed to you (not saying you're not putting in the effort to learn).

I'm not talking about having it handed to me. I'm talking about having the time to work on it in class.

But you don't have to go through the curriculum every time, that's the whole point.

You misunderstood my point. My point is that between our curriculum and drilling techniques for that, and then our sparring drills and WT sparring, there's not much time left over. There's a few things we do every time (such as foundational drills and forms) and then there's things we get to maybe once or twice a quarter. If we have a hard time finding time for curriculum items, it's going to be harder to find time for elective content.

What I'm saying is I understand why we don't have time to dedicate to punch fighting in class. I wish we could have more, and maybe we can. But it's not something I'm up in arms about.

 

[dvcochran]

I've got 9 years of Taekwondo training. 5 at my current school. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in the art. I think that would have happened by now.

It depends on how much time you have spent outside your home Dojang. Isolation

I've got 9 years of Taekwondo training. 5 at my current school. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in the art. I think that would have happened by now.

It depends on how much time you have spent outside your home Dojang. Isolation is a crippling condition. Plus, if your nine years started when you were 6 years old it doesn't carry as much weight. Yea, it should have happened by now.

 

[dvcochran]

The idea of wanting something now. In regards to understanding MA is a long-term thing, I would relate it more to time practicing MA then to age. And with 'wanting it now', from what I remember, that is more based on innate traits and upbringing and tends to be a consistent characteristic over someones life, rather than something that changes as they get older.

Unless your suggestion was that something about the specific generation of millenials, unrelated to age, causes them to have that want it now mentality.

Exactly what I meant.

 

[dvcochran]

The idea of wanting something now. In regards to understanding MA is a long-term thing, I would relate it more to time practicing MA then to age. And with 'wanting it now', from what I remember, that is more based on innate traits and upbringing and tends to be a consistent characteristic over someones life, rather than something that changes as they get older.

Unless your suggestion was that something about the specific generation of millenials, unrelated to age, causes them to have that want it now mentality.

I could have said more but why? The simplest answer is usually the most elegant.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Exactly what I meant.

I could have said more but why? The simplest answer is usually the most elegant.

Sometimes, but I'm still confused which one you meant in this instance. That it's age (meaning every 20 something year old has gone through this) or that it's the millenial-generation specific (meaning that its a new phenomena)?

 

[dvcochran]

Sometimes, but I'm still confused which one you meant in this instance. That it's age (meaning every 20 something year old has gone through this) or that it's the millenial-generation specific (meaning that its a new phenomena)?

I hope it is millennial-generation specific. Of course, every older generation thinks the next couple of generations are going to bring on the end of everything.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I hope it is millennial-generation specific. Of course, every older generation thinks the next couple of generations are going to bring on the end of everything.

Then I disagree with you. I think it's more related to time in martial arts, and other characteristics that aren't based on MA or age at all. I know plenty of people currently in their 20s to early 30s, that fully accept they're going to have to put in a lot of effort and time to get good at MA (and have done so), and understand that they don't fully understand their arts. I also know plenty of people in their teens, 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s who assumed after a few years they knew everything there was to know, and gave up on their MA because of that.

It may be a difference in experiences, but mine so far does not support that idea at all. I'm also confused about why you hope it is millennial-generation specific, but I'm guessing that you just mean that you hope the next generation will not be like that, rather than hoping millennials are like that.

 

[dvcochran]

Then I disagree with you. I think it's more related to time in martial arts, and other characteristics that aren't based on MA or age at all. I know plenty of people currently in their 20s to early 30s, that fully accept they're going to have to put in a lot of effort and time to get good at MA (and have done so), and understand that they don't fully understand their arts. I also know plenty of people in their teens, 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s who assumed after a few years they knew everything there was to know, and gave up on their MA because of that.

It may be a difference in experiences, but mine so far does not support that idea at all. I'm also confused about why you hope it is millennial-generation specific, but I'm guessing that you just mean that you hope the next generation will not be like that, rather than hoping millennials are like that.

Yea, you are stating the obvious and yes I am certain it will all change with the next generation.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yea, you are stating the obvious and yes I am certain it will all change with the next generation.

I think because it's through text I can't get a feeling on your tone, so I'm misunderstanding you. I basically directly disagreed with what you stated and you are saying I'm stating the obvious. I can't tell if the second part is serious, sarcasm or placating me, since I can't tell tone here.

That said, I'm pretty sure both of us are misunderstanding each other a bit, so there is no real reason to continue to derail this thread.

 

[dvcochran]

I think because it's through text I can't get a feeling on your tone, so I'm misunderstanding you. I basically directly disagreed with what you stated and you are saying I'm stating the obvious. I can't tell if the second part is serious, sarcasm or placating me, since I can't tell tone here.

That said, I'm pretty sure both of us are misunderstanding each other a bit, so there is no real reason to continue to derail this thread.

I love a good debate. If you don't get that it is ok do disagree so be it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I love a good debate. If you don't get that it is ok do disagree so be it.

I absolutely get that it's good to disagree, I do so all the time. But I'm pretty sure this one is primarily miscommunication because of the medium, and not on point of the thread.