Picking up a new art in a new school?

[skribs]

From the way you were writing , I was a afraid you would fall in the the trap I did, of comparing my first art to my second art.
Once I let go and went all in , it was like night and day. It is only when you are all in that you are happy and have the right attitude.
I was young and prideful of my abilities, it was hard to be humble and and empty my cup.

No, you and I both said the same thing, that I must first learn the new art before making the comparison. The only difference in our posts is you added a timestamp. You didn't disagree with me. You just posted more detail.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My viewpoint is, assuming you're going to have the time/motivation to actually devote yourself to an art, dont worry about your past art. You can compare at first to figure out if it would be useful for you, but after that just learn what they have to teach. After you've been training for a long while (imo at least a year or two) you can start comparing specific things from the different styles.

I don't actually think those two activities (comparing and just learning) are contradictory. I'm not really capable of not comparing something new to what I already know - it's just part of how I think about things. At the same time, I am all-in on the learning. I just love learning new stuff, so it doesn't really matter to me whether I think it's more useful, less useful, or just an alternative. I still want to learn it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with both of these statements and would only add that it requires a certain amount of humility to strap on the 'white belt' mentality when moving to another MA. Those that are able to be 'white belts' will be open to the learn what is being offered more readily than someone interested in comparing old vs new. I don't think it takes 3 months or a year to figure out if the new art is going to add to your tool chest. You could probably see that within the first few classes. Giving the art 3 months to a year though is an excellent way to thoroughly determine how much you have progressed and how applicable your prior training was for you to get there so if that is your end game, then it certainly sounds reasonable.

Comparing what one knows to what is being learned doesn't preclude that white belt mentality.

 

[pdg]

From the way you were writing , I was a afraid you would fall in the the trap I did, of comparing my first art to my second art.
Once I let go and went all in , it was like night and day. It is only when you are all in that you are happy and have the right attitude.
I was young and prideful of my abilities, it was hard to be humble and and empty my cup.

***Intentional plagiarism warning***

From the way you were writing, I was afraid you would fall into the trap I did - of assuming everyone else had the same behaviour profile as me.

Once I realised that not everyone has the same psychological reactions as I do, I tried to stop making what amount to blanket statements and recommendations.

I was young and prideful - it was hard to admit that not everyone can do what I can, and that I can't do the same as others.

***/Plagiarism***

 

[Bruce7]

***Intentional plagiarism warning***

From the way you were writing, I was afraid you would fall into the trap I did - of assuming everyone else had the same behaviour profile as me.

Once I realised that not everyone has the same psychological reactions as I do, I tried to stop making what amount to blanket statements and recommendations.

I was young and prideful - it was hard to admit that not everyone can do what I can, and that I can't do the same as others.

***/Plagiarism***

I wrote this from the heart, the only thing I heard before I wrote this was the "empty my cup" phase.
It is possible the thought came from a book I read , but I do not remember ever reading or hearing
" From the way you were writing, I was afraid you would fall into the trap I did."
I was a teacher so I dislike plagiarism, when I though it might be plagiarism, I would go over the paper with my student.
I never accused a student of plagiarism. I made them rewrite there paper.
After being accused. it makes me rethink the whole plagiarism thing.
Did I mentally accuse a student unjustly.

 

[Bruce7]

Update: I have hear of the night and day thing.

 

[Bruce7]

***Intentional plagiarism warning***

From the way you were writing, I was afraid you would fall into the trap I did - of assuming everyone else had the same behaviour profile as me.

Once I realised that not everyone has the same psychological reactions as I do, I tried to stop making what amount to blanket statements and recommendations.

I was young and prideful - it was hard to admit that not everyone can do what I can, and that I can't do the same as others.

***/Plagiarism***

In the computer age I know students buy papers on the internet, it is a real problem, so stopping plagiarism is very important.
You were right to point this out, which book did the phase come from, I think I would know if I read the book.
This has got me freaked out. How do you know someone has used the same phase as you, is there a computer apt?
It should not hurt to be accused, you know if you did it or not.
I am surprised how much it hurt.

 

[dvcochran]

My best example of this was my foray into FMA. I found a meetup for martial arts. It turned out to be an ad for a hybrid style (FMA with small-circle JJ bolted on). I took what turned out to be private lessons for some months (less than a year, I think). My experience was helpful - I understood how to generate power with the sticks, and could usually find some analog for other movements- but I was also impatient. The instructor wanted me to stick to exaggerated beginner movements, even when I could generate the power without them. I seem so much time learning NOT to do that, it drove me nuts.

Was it an obsessive instructor who refused to see that you were already to move on? Or was it more of a conflict with teaching along with others in class? Or, like you said, were you just impatient, making it hard to slow down and be a sponge? It is hard for me to do that sometimes even within my own classes.

 

[dvcochran]

For me learning a new art was the best thing that ever happen to me as far as being a Martial Artists.
I think finding the teacher is more important than the art. I went from Taekwondo to Kung Fu long fist. My Kung Fu teacher had amazing skills and was very tough on you. Sitting in a horse stance for half an hour humming, hitting me in the back of knees with a short bo if I straight up. Everything was different yet the same. Kung Fu stances were so different, at first I thought this is just stupid, then when I started using them the rules of balance were the same and their unseen advantages came to life in use.
The belt thing was no big deal because, he wore a black belt and we all wore a white belt. He like to spar with me, I think because I spar different from the other students, he like to make me look stupid, and I know he enjoyed my pain. He would slip all my punches and kicks. So I would learn the value of slipping kicks, after slipping my kick he would sweep my back leg and both of my feet would fly in the air. He was also a mind reader, He knew what you were going to do before you did. I learn from the pain of my mistakes to read other fighters.
You see he spoke zero English, and only taught by example or touch. His touch was not gentle.

My limited Kung Fu experience gelled pretty well with my MDK TKD experience. Long, deep stances and all. Not so much with the more modern WTF TKD though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Was it an obsessive instructor who refused to see that you were already to move on? Or was it more of a conflict with teaching along with others in class? Or, like you said, were you just impatient, making it hard to slow down and be a sponge? It is hard for me to do that sometimes even within my own classes.

It was private lessons, so no conflict with teaching others. In fact, he wanted me to join a small group class he taught for only folks who held rank (BB+) in some art already. (I couldn't join that because I was teaching at the same time.)

I was impatient - that's a character trait of mine. But what brings my impatience to the fore is when there doesn't seem to be a reason for not moving ahead. In this case, the instructor didn't have anything to correct, except that I should be doing the beginner's movement. What I mean by that is he didn't say, "You're not using proper technique - let's stick to the beginner movement and get that fixed." He said something like, "I know you're used to using smaller movements, but we have to practice the beginner movement for a long time before we can move to the advanced movement. The masters use small movements like you're working with, but that's because they're the masters and spent many years doing the beginner movements."

To me, that lacks any explanation of a reason to use that bigger movement, other than that it's supposed to be necessary. If he'd shown me some fundamental mistake I was making, I'd have happily done the beginner movement until that mistake was cured. There were places I didn't really understand the principles, and those places I gladly stuck to the beginner movement (or the closest approximation I could manage - like any beginner). And there were things my habits made difficult to do "properly" (using the technique as he was showing it), so I was happy to do those in beginner mode. But when there's no error pointed out, just an expectation of an amount of time that should be spent doing it exaggerated, my mind rebels.

 

[pdg]

I wrote this from the heart, the only thing I heard before I wrote this was the "empty my cup" phase.
It is possible the thought came from a book I read , but I do not remember ever reading or hearing
" From the way you were writing, I was afraid you would fall into the trap I did."
I was a teacher so I dislike plagiarism, when I though it might be plagiarism, I would go over the paper with my student.
I never accused a student of plagiarism. I made them rewrite there paper.
After being accused. it makes me rethink the whole plagiarism thing.
Did I mentally accuse a student unjustly.

No, you misunderstand.

I intentionally plagiarised your post, stealing the entire theme to suit my own ends.

The final "/plagiarism" part is a coding thing - the "/" signifying a final variable.

So I wasn't accusing you, I was preaccusing myself as part of the 'joke' of stealing your phrasing (given the content I inserted).

Yeah, childish of me - but I'm only just over 40

 

[Bruce7]

My limited Kung Fu experience gelled pretty well with my MDK TKD experience. Long, deep stances and all. Not so much with the more modern WTF TKD though.

I think you are right going from MDK to Long Fist is a good match. They are alike yet very different.
The side kick is only half chamber, but their back kick is like MDK , similar to the MDK fully chambered.
The hard work ethic was the same. A lot of the stances were long and deep similar to MDK, but for example.
The front stance was as long, but was not as wide and the front foot turned in. I first though that was just wrong, but when doing reverse punches the back fist did not over punch and the front fist got the full extension without reducing your balance.
The main different was Kung Fu worked on redirecting force more than MDK.
I don't know if it was the art or my instructor, Kung Fu was better at taming my pride.

 

[Bruce7]

No, you misunderstand.

I intentionally plagiarised your post, stealing the entire theme to suit my own ends.

The final "/plagiarism" part is a coding thing - the "/" signifying a final variable.

So I wasn't accusing you, I was preaccusing myself as part of the 'joke' of stealing your phrasing (given the content I inserted).

Yeah, childish of me - but I'm only just over 40

Thank you , you have made me feel so much better.
I am sorry I went off the rails.
To most people, plagiarism is no big deal, but to a teacher it is our enemy.

 

[Bruce7]

It was private lessons, so no conflict with teaching others. In fact, he wanted me to join a small group class he taught for only folks who held rank (BB+) in some art already. (I couldn't join that because I was teaching at the same time.)

I was impatient - that's a character trait of mine. But what brings my impatience to the fore is when there doesn't seem to be a reason for not moving ahead. In this case, the instructor didn't have anything to correct, except that I should be doing the beginner's movement. What I mean by that is he didn't say, "You're not using proper technique - let's stick to the beginner movement and get that fixed." He said something like, "I know you're used to using smaller movements, but we have to practice the beginner movement for a long time before we can move to the advanced movement. The masters use small movements like you're working with, but that's because they're the masters and spent many years doing the beginner movements."

To me, that lacks any explanation of a reason to use that bigger movement, other than that it's supposed to be necessary. If he'd shown me some fundamental mistake I was making, I'd have happily done the beginner movement until that mistake was cured. There were places I didn't really understand the principles, and those places I gladly stuck to the beginner movement (or the closest approximation I could manage - like any beginner). And there were things my habits made difficult to do "properly" (using the technique as he was showing it), so I was happy to do those in beginner mode. But when there's no error pointed out, just an expectation of an amount of time that should be spent doing it exaggerated, my mind rebels.

I agree with your teacher. Many people taking many year to develop the knowledge how long you should do a technique before moving to the next technique makes sense to me. Understanding is only the beginning, muscle memory can not be rushed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with your teacher. Many people taking many year to develop the knowledge how long you should do a technique before moving to the next technique makes sense to me. Understanding is only the beginning, muscle memory can not be rushed.

That would make sense if either 1) the movement being emphasized was the target (it was not - the target was a much smaller movement), or 2) there was some flaw in what I was doing that made going to that exaggerated version useful. Since he wasn't able to verbalize something that needed changing, I can only assume he saw nothing that needed changing. His entire point appeared to be, "You can't progress that fast."

 

[Bruce7]

That would make sense if either 1) the movement being emphasized was the target (it was not - the target was a much smaller movement), or 2) there was some flaw in what I was doing that made going to that exaggerated version useful. Since he wasn't able to verbalize something that needed changing, I can only assume he saw nothing that needed changing. His entire point appeared to be, "You can't progress that fast."

We are products of our experience. My two best teachers were old school, so I lean toward teachers who require slower progression. I am not saying that teaching as fast the student can learn is wrong, because students without patience might become bored, frustrated and quit. I personally, like doing the basics everyday other people might hate that.

 

[Bruce7]

Wax on, wax off, trusting your teacher even though it seems stupid.I know it is just a movie, but it is still true.

 

[Headhunter]

Wax on, wax off, trusting your teacher even though it seems stupid.I know it is just a movie, but it is still true.

Don't agree with that. Blind faith is never a good thing. Everyone on this earth is equal so we have our to question things and if I think an instructors telling me something I don't agree with I will certainly question it not in a rude way but just out of curiousity. Any decent instructor should have 0 problem answering questions on what they say

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We are products of our experience. My two best teachers were old school, so I lean toward teachers who require slower progression. I am not saying that teaching as fast the student can learn is wrong, because students without patience might become bored, frustrated and quit. I personally, like doing the basics everyday other people might hate that.

Slower progression isn't useful unless it's actual. By that, I mean if someone comes to my school and can do a punch like I'm going to teach them, there's no reason at all for me to force them to do the beginner version where the full version they know will work for the drill/exercise at hand. And "basics" isn't the same as "beginner's mode" - or shouldn't be, in my opinion. I still practice the basics of my primary art every chance I can, but I absolutely do not practice them with the exaggeration I required 30 years ago.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't agree with that. Blind faith is never a good thing. Everyone on this earth is equal so we have our to question things and if I think an instructors telling me something I don't agree with I will certainly question it not in a rude way but just out of curiousity. Any decent instructor should have 0 problem answering questions on what they say

While I agree, I also agree with what I think was Bruce's point: sometimes we need to sit back and trust that the instructor we've chosen has a method for things, and just give the exercise a chance to work. I've never minded asking (nor being asked) the purpose of something, but if I ask the purpose on everything new to me, I'd really slow down my start on new material. Sometimes, I just accept the drill as-is and keep going.