Aikido vs judo

[RTKDCMB]

What will happen if you train both Judo and Aikido?

You will become very tired.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If we define 3 different distances, the wrist gate, elbow gate, and the shoulder gate,

- Aikido like to fight in the "wrist gate" range.
- Judo likes to fight in the "elbow gate" and "shoulder gate" range.

From a wrestling point of view, The Aikido "wrist gate" cannot be considered as "clinch". When you control your opponent's wrist, his elbow join is still free. Also the distance between you and your opponent is too far. It can give your opponent more room to counter and escape.

If you only hold the wrist, you're not controlling it. If you lock the wrist properly (in most techniques), you do actually control the shoulder (the principle of conjunctive locking).

 

[hoshin1600]

What will happen if you train both Judo and Aikido?

I dont know.
I think judo is more about application and making it work. While aikido is more boiling it down to its core essence and understanding the essence of harmony with all the philosophy that goes with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's what I want to know. Will trying aikido hurt my judo performance?

Not if you have two good instructors. The Aikido will probably help you use less strength in your Judo (conservation of energy means you outlast the opponent). Judo will add some tools that are commonly missing (as JP pointed out) in Aikido schools. The Judo will probably improve the Aikido more than the other way around, at least for the first couple of years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no...not all MA systems should train these. these techniques do not fit with aikidos philosophy.

from my experience and everything that i have learned, in my opinion ....
Aikido means "the way of Aiki" so what exactly is aiki ? aiki is two words ai is harmony Ki is energy.
aiki is a blending of energy from your opponent with your own. but i believe this is done in a very different manner than the way Judo does. Judo starts with contact already made between Tori and Uke . Tori may push on Uke and when Uke reacts to the energy to counterbalance himself Tori will then reverse the action and pull uke into a throw. Tori is using leverage with a low level of force combined with Uke's reaction.
in Aikido nage and uke typically would start from a few feet apart. Uke initiates the action by giving Nage an attacking line of force (could be a punch, strike or grab) Nage will "capture" this force pulling it into a spherical rotation, with nage at the center. using centrifugal force and uke's own momentum, nage will guide this energy into an action that is designed to injure uke, uke will allow himself to be thrown rather than receive it directly into a joint like the wrist or elbow.
imagine a ball is thrown at you and you step out of the way, as your hand moves in the same direction that the ball is traveling. your hand catches up to the ball and catches it from behind the line of force and pushes it even faster. then your finger tips give it a little push in a different vector.
aikido is not a push and pull, catch your opponent off guard. it is capturing your opponents energy and at high levels actually capturing your opponents intent and redirecting it.
it is a very subtle difference. i would say aikido is like bull fighting. you just are not there to take the push, while Judo is taking the push then pulling on their arm.

That same application of aiki can, in fact, be used with shoulder throws, hip throws, and leg sweeps. The techniques are not inherently outside the principles of Ueshiba's art. Likely they were not taught by Ueshiba because his early students already knew them well.

 

[hoshin1600]

That same application of aiki can, in fact, be used with shoulder throws, hip throws, and leg sweeps. The techniques are not inherently outside the principles of Ueshiba's art. Likely they were not taught by Ueshiba because his early students already knew them well.

You may be right but I feel Ueshiba 's art was his expression of his philosophy and religious views. The techniques would have been hand picked based on which ones best exemplified these values. O-sensei always said that the techniques come from the universe.
Once you learn the principals you can apply them everywhere. But I think the techniques he taught were the ones he felt would best demonstrate the essence of the art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You may be right but I feel Ueshiba 's art was his expression of his philosophy and religious views. The techniques would have been hand picked based on which ones best exemplified these values. O-sensei always said that the techniques come from the universe.
Once you learn the principals you can apply them everywhere. But I think the techniques he taught were the ones he felt would best demonstrate the essence of the art.

As time went on, I think that became more true. When he was teaching early, there's some significant evidence that what he taught (or, rather, what he didn't teach) was highly influenced by what was common knowledge among his students. Anyone doing any grappling was likely to have a basic hip throw, basic shoulder throw, and basic leg sweep with some proficiency. They probably also had some basic striking work. None of that made it into his curriculum. I point out the latter because he is quoted as saying that atemi (striking) is integral to Aikido, yet there is little evidence of him teaching it.

 

[JP3]

From a wrestling point of view, The Aikido "wrist gate" cannot be considered as "clinch". When you control your opponent's wrist, his elbow join is still free. Also the distance between you and your opponent is too far. It can give your opponent more room to counter and escape.

I don't know, it would depend on the wrist technique being taught/performed, I think.

If I'm on the wrist to "do something" to the guy, then I agree. If I'm on the wrist to finish the guy, then I'm following my "locking rules," which say "In order to lock/submit someone using a joint, you have to also secure the next flex point/joint both above and below the joint."

Take for instance, the kotegaeshi throw. Nearly every art has this type of technique in their catalog, though I'd need to ask you guys/gals who practice other arts in other languages other than Japanese what the term would be. I "should" know its name in Korean, but it's been so long, and we didn't use Korean int he daily practice much at all, so I've forgotten.

I get control of the wrist. Just go with it, it's my story, so I got control of the wrist, how I did it is my business.

So, I have control of the wrist, but I don't have contact with anything else on the guy, maybe, depending on where my other hand is. It "might" be on the hand/wrist to supplement the control and power delivery, or it might be free to, I don't know, deliver a strike to all that centerline stuff (probably palm to face or knife-hand to neck as both of these would help drive my throw). In this above example, I agree with Wang. If I miss my kuzushi, and can't "dig it out" (my term for finding a workable variation on the fly), then the guy can get off the technique and counter in a number of ways.

But, as a finishing lock, I make sure to have the wrist affected the correct manner, pin the elbow (either directly, positioning or with pressure caused by uke himself) and the back of the hand (the metacarpals going into the carpals, joints aplenty) and wallah, locked position, which complies with Wang's postulate above.

The first one is a tool, to cause an effect. The second one is actually an effect, used to cause a stoppage point (or else the trip to the orthopedic surgeon).

 

[JP3]

Throws such as hip throw, shoulder throw, foot sweep, ... are just the basic tools. IMO, it should not have any style boundary. All MA systems should train those tools.

Absolutely. Simple throws that everyone should be taught, know, and have in their toolbox. It does not matter if you primarily consider yourself a striker, or a ground game grappler. Everyone can use a basic hip or shoulder throw.

 

[JP3]

no...not all MA systems should train these. these techniques do not fit with aikidos philosophy.

from my experience and everything that i have learned, in my opinion ....
Aikido means "the way of Aiki" so what exactly is aiki ? aiki is two words ai is harmony Ki is energy.
aiki is a blending of energy from your opponent with your own. but i believe this is done in a very different manner than the way Judo does. Judo starts with contact already made between Tori and Uke . Tori may push on Uke and when Uke reacts to the energy to counterbalance himself Tori will then reverse the action and pull uke into a throw. Tori is using leverage with a low level of force combined with Uke's reaction.
in Aikido nage and uke typically would start from a few feet apart. Uke initiates the action by giving Nage an attacking line of force (could be a punch, strike or grab) Nage will "capture" this force pulling it into a spherical rotation, with nage at the center. using centrifugal force and uke's own momentum, nage will guide this energy into an action that is designed to injure uke, uke will allow himself to be thrown rather than receive it directly into a joint like the wrist or elbow.
imagine a ball is thrown at you and you step out of the way, as your hand moves in the same direction that the ball is traveling. your hand catches up to the ball and catches it from behind the line of force and pushes it even faster. then your finger tips give it a little push in a different vector.
aikido is not a push and pull, catch your opponent off guard. it is capturing your opponents energy and at high levels actually capturing your opponents intent and redirecting it.
it is a very subtle difference. i would say aikido is like bull fighting. you just are not there to take the push, while Judo is taking the push then pulling on their arm.

We're going to have to respectfully disagree. Question, which I don't intend as an attack. Have you ever practiced what I'd call Gentleman Judo? Judo for the practice, the learning, not for competition? Just curious, as your thoughts are very similar to aikido folks I've talked with in the past who haven't done judo not spun into the competitive arena.

And, you've very well described why quite a few people in the world do not even consider Tomiki-ryu Aikido aikido at all. Even though Tomiki was granted the first menkyo by O-Sensei around 1940 or so.

I like your physics metaphor of the ball, it's way better than the one I was trying to use to convey the concept to Drop Bear in another thread.

There are a couple things that judo people do that most aikido people don't do, I agree with that. Pull and lift. However, that does not mean that for certain actions in aikido, there's not a crossover from judo that doesn't do the exact same thing. In my mind, it's like those pictures used in math, where they are talking about "sets," in which sometimes there is an overlap of the one set with the other set.

Consider two circles, one colored red, the other colored blue. They are apart, and do not have any portions which are "in" the other one. But, if you overlap them a bit, or a lot (just not completely) you'd have a crescent of red, a middle area of maybe purple, and then an opposing crescent of blue. In the middle area are techniques which are/could be both aikido technically correct as well as judo technically correct. In other words, not all judo techniques use either lift or pull. Some do, and those would not work even under Tomiki "rules" for aikido, he' call those judo. But, you can't even do those throws from out at aikido distance, so it ends up being back to distance between tori/nage and uke.

 

[JP3]

What will happen if you train both Judo and Aikido?

Your head will explode.

Or, you'll become like me.

Maybe the first one is preferable, I don't know.

 

[JP3]

If you only hold the wrist, you're not controlling it. If you lock the wrist properly (in most techniques), you do actually control the shoulder (the principle of conjunctive locking).

Look at you. I'm totally stealing That one. The "Principle of Conjunctive Locking."

Nice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All I know is that Steven Seagal does one and not the other. Does that help?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Look at you. I'm totally stealing That one. The "Principle of Conjunctive Locking."

Nice.

Feel free. I stole it from Don Angier of Yanagi-ryu. When he said it at a seminar some 15-20 years ago, I instantly knew I'd be stealing it.

 

[JP3]

I dont know.
I think judo is more about application and making it work. While aikido is more boiling it down to its core essence and understanding the essence of harmony with all the philosophy that goes with it.

Another question. Which... I guess the word "line" will work, line of aikido do you train? Not out from under Tomiki, I get it. Probably not Shioda, either? The original Ueshiba line, or Tohei? Just curious.

 

[JP3]

All I know is that Steven Seagal does one and not the other. Does that help?

Unless I'm messing up my action movies with SS starring, in Under Seige, which is the one on the Navy ship where Erika Eleniak has that unforgettable bit where she comes out of the cake (I dated a girl who looked exactly like Erika except for the um... front bumpers in college) which is how I remember this, SS did a couple simple judo throws in that movie. Hip throws, which are easy for him since he's the protagonist and has both the fight choreographer and musical score on his side.

 

[JP3]

Feel free. I stole it from Don Angier of Yanagi-ryu. When he said it at a seminar some 15-20 years ago, I instantly knew I'd be stealing it.

Way easier to say each time than to trot out the entire thing I typed out above every single time. I can give the above to someone once, then say "That's the Principle of Conjunctive Locking." Afterwards, I'd just say "Remember... Conjunctive Locking," when someone couldn't get a lock or bar to work.

As I said... nice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You will become very tired.

It depends on whether Aikido and Judo have any conflict principle/strategy or not.

When I trained

- long fist, I was taught to forget my arms and just use my body to punch.
- WC, I was taught to freeze my body and just use my arm to punch.

Even today, I still don't know how to integrate these 2 MA systems.

 

[JP3]

It depends on whether Aikido and Judo have any conflict principle/strategy or not.

When I trained

- long fist, I was taught to forget my arms and just use my body to punch.
- WC, I was taught to freeze my body and just use my arm to punch.

Even today, I still don't know how to integrate these 2 MA systems.

Huh... That does seem mutually exclusive.

I've no clue, so tell me something. I'm guessing from the name, is Long Fist used from farther away from the bad guy? And, most forms of WC I've seen done, it's right up close and personal.

If that's the thing, then maybe the... answer, for lack of a better answer is that you don't use both at the same time, you use one from "out there" and the other when they're "in here."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you use one from "out there" and the other when they're "in here."

The distance is not the issue. The issue is power generation. Most MA systems emphasize

- body push/pull arm.
- hand coordinate with foot.
- elbow coordinate with knee.
- shoulder coordinate with hip.

In some MA systems, this guidelines are not followed. If one MA system pays serious attention on these guideline while another MA system does not, it can cause some conflict.