How effective is Aikido?

[kenpohack]

I don't mean to insult anyone who studies aikido, but how effective is the art against attacks with less than full commitment? I have studied kenpo, japanese jujitsu, and brazilian jiu-jitsu. I have no experience with aikido save for observing a few classes. Almost all of the techniques that I saw in aikido would only work against someone throwing a hail mary punch or a fully-committed grab or takedown. How would a aikidoist deal with a boxer who jabs, throws combinations, and never fully commits or is off balance? Please complete my understanding.

 

[matt.m]

I study hapkido, it is close enough to answer your question I believe.

Hapkido teaches techniques against a wrist and clothes grab. However it should be looked at in a way for training purposes. A person must, must, must get in the reps. Otherwise no technique is good. Again, you must look past the training side and look at the technique, as to when how and what makes it effective.

Let's look at kicking shall we? Is it always the best idea to do a spinning cresent when a perfect front snap kick could be used instead? That is the point of learning technique. You start slow and work your way up.

 

[samurai69]

When you talk about effective ness of aikido.....from a purely self defence point of view......as opposed to an organised bout against say a boxer, then the full element of aikido from O'sensai's ideas/ideals can be felt

I have'nt seen many (if any) street fights where the attacker was throwing less than fully committed attacks......therefore aikido will work

in the ring with someone throwing jabs......as an aikidoka you may get hit, but a boxer still has to throw a cross (or other more committed attack).......therefore during a bout the aikidoka will practice avoidance techniques and then when an attack is committed he can perform his technique.

When O sensai started teaching aikido all (certaiinly most) were already well versed in other arts..and it was expected that their atemi was from their previous art.....so though there are no attacks specifically in aikido , all those that practiced already were skilled in atemi.

 

[Nemesis]

So basically the game plan of the aikidoist is to dodge until is oponent executs the technique he wants him to do? Is that your whole game plan? How can you expect to be able to do that, for how long and at what cost? I've seen a few Aikido demonstrations and the atacking techniques are always very "clean", very telegrafed, and never in combinations. But a fight is never like that even if it's not a streetfight; a fight in a ring or in a tatami is often messy and more complicated.

There one question that i've always had about Aikido (probably a stupid one but here goes) if Aikido does not teach any atacking techniques such as punchs, kicks, elbows and so on, how can a student learn to evade them so well (because if i understand corretelly, the Aikido game plan requires absolutelly perfect evassive techniques), do you need to have a background of another martial art first, or do you teach these strikes after all.

 

[Jenna]

There one question that i've always had about Aikido (probably a stupid one but here goes) if Aikido does not teach any atacking techniques such as punchs, kicks, elbows and so on, how can a student learn to evade them so well (because if i understand corretelly, the Aikido game plan requires absolutelly perfect evassive techniques), do you need to have a background of another martial art first, or do you teach these strikes after all.

Hey Nemesis san and now I see your name and I wonder are you nemesis to everyone? I hope not

Your question is not stupid at all but highly relevant and though I will not speak for anyone else personally I train in a small group of like minded aikidoka who amongst us will simulate attacks from every angle we can conceive and using whichever ideas we have experienced for real or encountered in visiting with other artists. I do not think there is any requirement upon us to know exactly how to do Wing Chun chain punching or TKD step through side kicks as we are not looking to defend specifically against punches or kicks as this tends to draw aikidoka into a mirroring behaviour of hard blocks and counter atemi which is not conducive to the PURE circularity of Aikido. So a background in another art is NOT relevant to Aikido techniques themselves though it is obviously important to have exposure to these if you seek to know how to defend yourself. However PLEASE also bear in mind that the core philisophy af Aikido is not common to many arts and you will have your own philosophy as a kareteka and further I know we sometimes forget that NOT everyone practises Aikido --or ANY art for that matter-- simply as a vehicle for their personal defence!

Please ask again if this is not overly clear

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[samurai69]

So basically the game plan of the aikidoist is to dodge until is oponent executs the technique he wants him to do? Is that your whole game plan? How can you expect to be able to do that, for how long and at what cost? I've seen a few Aikido demonstrations and the atacking techniques are always very "clean", very telegrafed, and never in combinations. But a fight is never like that even if it's not a streetfight; a fight in a ring or in a tatami is often messy and more complicated.

Firstly aikido in general is not based around fighting in the ring,, so tyhis is a supposition......Karate, Ju Jutsu (various styles) and aikido all use tai sabaki...body movement.....I have had to use some aikido on the street and also use some aikido techniques when i teach my SD classes.

A good boxer will spend a majority of time slipping and avoiding being hit......whilst waiting for an opening

In a street fight, its the principles of aikido, that are the bit that makes it effective

but my aikido in a streetfight is about whats right at the time........dependant on technique or atemi.....size, weight ect of opponent

what you see when i demonstrate my aikido in a class is exactly that..A DEMONSTRATION" and as such is specific moves from specific attacks



There one question that i've always had about Aikido (probably a stupid one but here goes) if Aikido does not teach any atacking techniques such as punchs, kicks, elbows and so on, how can a student learn to evade them so well (because if i understand corretelly, the Aikido game plan requires absolutelly perfect evassive techniques), do you need to have a background of another martial art first, or do you teach these strikes after all.

This point was also mentioned and covered in my previous post..in the early days of aikido, it was assumed that the students were from other arts and already had kicks/punches etc.....indeed even now i get students from other arts that use different methods of striking.....we learn from these and addapt accordingly

Aikido is a realatively new art based on older methods..it should continue growing and addapting as indeed everything else grows and adapts

.

I hope this answers the points made

 

[Nemesis]

I would like to see that in action. Are there any videos of Akido being used on non cooperative opponents?

 

[Nemesis]

Hey Nemesis san and now I see your name and I wonder are you nemesis to everyone? I hope not

Yes, to most people, but not to every one. And sometimes the best way for me to learn something is to pretend that i am against it and listen to what the other person has to say. You can't get much out of a conversation if both persons start out agreing with each other, can you?

Now for what you said about learning a martial art without being for self defense. Isn't that dangerous? If you don't focus on the practical view of the techniques they will not work if you really need to use them, but since such a person trains in a martial art he will gain a sense of confidence, a false one of course that will only get him into trouble.
Shouldn't this person seek whatever he is looking for elsewhere. If it is espiritual enlightment, there is meditation, yoga or religion. If it's just to burn calories or for fun there are lots of other sports that can provide that.

 

[Jenna]

Yes, to most people, but not to every one.

Then I take comfort in the fact I am not most people

And sometimes the best way for me to learn something is to pretend that i am against it and listen to what the other person has to say.

Yes I understand this and would not wish criticise you for it because it is a valid method for getting your knowledge. And from this I deduce you are young or younger than me at least and so have many directions open to you in your search but all I might say is that you will gain that knowledge more quickly from people who believe your interest is genuine and not mocking. And yes I am replying to you because I am selfish maybe and believe knowledge can be acquired from every single person provided the mind is open to it

You can't get much out of a conversation if both persons start out agreing with each other, can you?

um... I dunno.... should I agree? Or is that a trick question? Ha!

Now for what you said about learning a martial art without being for self defense. Isn't that dangerous? If you don't focus on the practical view of the techniques they will not work if you really need to use them, but since such a person trains in a martial art he will gain a sense of confidence, a false one of course that will only get him into trouble.

I think your logic holds very well and I will make no argument against that. I was speaking not just as the Devil's advocate for this is not my personal training situation but I had noticed a trend several years ago before I left my last school and hooked up and build our little Aikido training group that there was a tendency yes for students not to have ANY REAL awareness at all of why they were training except to say they wanted to do a martial art. There were also many students who came for the spiritual and philosophical to the exclusion of the physical defensive techniques which is perhaps to miss the point of Aikido as it was designed? As I say this is not me at all but I might argue that all reasons for training are equally valid if the student gets what they want from it.

Shouldn't this person seek whatever he is looking for elsewhere. If it is espiritual enlightment, there is meditation, yoga or religion. If it's just to burn calories or for fun there are lots of other sports that can provide that.

Well I agree yes there are other possibly better routes to fitness but would you REALLY turn a genuinely interested student away or cut them off from training in your club or class or school because they did not want to become the deadliest fighter there ever was? Of course if you are the proprietor then that is entirely your right and I would not argue.

You be good
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Nemesis]

Well I agree yes there are other possibly better routes to fitness but would you REALLY turn a genuinely interested student away or cut them off from training in your club or class or school because they did not want to become the deadliest fighter there ever was?

Of course not. It's a personal choise so it should not be forced by others. But just because you're not aiming to be "the deadliest fighter" doesn't mean you should overlook the point of what your doing. Martial arts where invented so people could defend themselves and their loved ones against possible attacks, even if that martial art as a more spiritual side too. And yes Jenna, as far as i know, even Aikido fits that profile.

 

[Robert Lee]

Its not just the art its the person that can do the use of the tools in a art that makes something effective The better you can use your method the better that training works for you. Akido is softer then other arts yet it can be effective Not well rounded but it was not intended to be. A skillful person uses what they can If that skill came from Akido training Akido has credit to that persons performance.

 

[Nemesis]

Its not just the art its the person that can do the use of the tools in a art that makes something effective The better you can use your method the better that training works for you.

I think it's the other way around. The better the training works for you, the better you can use you're method.
But, if that's what you meant, i think you're right. There may be systems with faster results than others, but i think all systems can work IF they are trained properly. My question was how does Aikido use it's skills in a self defense situation? Or in other words, what is Aikido's response to a streetfight?

 

[Hand Sword]

Depends upon the practitioner. If they are aggressive, like a Steven Seagal, then the Aikido will be aggressive, etc... Basically, Aikido's response to a street fight is the same as every other system's -- the protection of one's self, or loved ones.

 

[Robert Lee]

Theres training then you have to be able to use some of it .That is your method. And if you have a method of use Then the training helps no method all the training is for not. Aikido you will more then likely take a few hits befor you get it working But the better you get the better you will be. Not like throws in class the person will fall and be injured more readly where in class the throw looks nice and the person rolls over and lands with a break fall. But the streets the person may just chrash right to the ground. One never knows for sure what works until it does that day.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well said. No replacement for real experience.

 

[Beowulf]

It seems from my research that Aikido and Taijutsu have similar broken rythm training method. Good for technique, but bettered for real combat with intense sparring.

Now I'm interested in taking Taijutsu, but I wonder if I should plan on doing intense sparring/randori against other MA practicioners after a few months of technique training to make sure I get to practice my art like the old masters. With some good old-fashioned competition.

I know we're talking about Aikido, but I think it would benefit Aikido practitioners to do the same. Even if your dojo doesn't do intense sparring, go practice your style against someone who does and your game will improve dramatically with this kind of testing.

Am I wrong?

 

[Hand Sword]

No you are not! Excellent mind set!

 

[MartialIntent]

It seems from my research that Aikido and Taijutsu have similar broken rythm training method. Good for technique, but bettered for real combat with intense sparring.

Now I'm interested in taking Taijutsu, but I wonder if I should plan on doing intense sparring/randori against other MA practicioners after a few months of technique training to make sure I get to practice my art like the old masters. With some good old-fashioned competition.

I know we're talking about Aikido, but I think it would benefit Aikido practitioners to do the same. Even if your dojo doesn't do intense sparring, go practice your style against someone who does and your game will improve dramatically with this kind of testing.

Am I wrong?

I'm not sure how you mean by broken rhythm. For me, my Aikido has to flow continuously. If I stop I am a sitting duck target. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you meant though.

I don't want to be disrespectful but I'm a wee bit tired of hearing what arts need added to them to make them right - you said you want to spar with practitioners from other arts. All I can say is that if one feels one's art is lacking then the best place to look is not necessarily in another art or against other practitioners. I'm not planning to confront a White Crane sifu on the street [he'll be too busy living his life and being a good guy to be in a fight] and so I don't need to go study the complexities and intricacies of the CMA but instead I plan to have myself at a level where I can despatch the usual street fare, haymakers, stupid hooks, cheeky jabs, front kicks and where I'm from bottles and knives and all that nonsense. These I am happy to do *within* my Aikido framework. The whole concept of X-training is starting to wear with me I'm afraid.

So I'd say that whichever direction you want to take your art, SD, competition, fitness, spiritual, whatever then you need to commit to that *within* your art and stop worrying about the wisdom that there is in other arts.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

I would agree with both points. One should dedicate themselves to training in their art, to the best of their ability. At the same time, an Aikidoka should "spar" using their Aikido against all different sorts, if they are big in self defense. Let's face it Aikidoka in class won't punch like boxers will, kick like a kick boxer, or grapple like a grappler. It would be good to make your Aikido effective against those. It all helps to add to a practitioner's effectiveness-- the flow of trained attacks, and broken rhythym attacks of the street.

 

[Beowulf]

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Its not your art thats lacking, its just exposure to violence and testing by other styles.

IMO, it seems best to dedicate yourself fully to your art, and better yourself within your art by testing it with those outside your art.

This doesn't mean your changing your art to their's, just refining your skills within it so that when you come into life situations your body adrenaline and mind will better handle a stressful situation where your art is needed. Thus you have been exposed to violence beforehand while using YOUR MA.

Of course this is not necessary, but from everyone who's done it I've heard it can be produce excellent results. Its not that your art is lacking anything in itself, it is complete. But without this kind of testing, how can you be sure you are complete yet?

Then if someone asks you if Aikido is effective you'll say, "Hells yes it is!" I've defeated wrestlers, boxers, MMA guys, weapon's experts, all with Aikido, an effective and complete art."

Of course someone doesn't have to cross-spar to prove their MA is complete, but it would prove that the person studying it is complete within it, would it not? (even if only to themselves)

Now if you have street experience using it successfully, IMO that would prove you are adept as well.

It makes sense to me.
But hey, I'm just a beginner, so don't take my word for it (But didn't the old masters do this too? I know the Taijutsu guys used to be real intense with sparring, even injuries, in practice, until it was realized that for the art to spread accross the world training would need to be toned down. But I, and I think many others today still want to be warriors in their art. So why not battle and do so?)

So far I haven't heard been convinced otherwise.