Aikido.. The reality?

[Shatteredzen]

Martial arts relies too heavily on stories to be practical. Effectively this outlook you have puts all of martial arts in to the same category as religious experience and magic.

And this is very disappointing for martial arts as I believe it is better than that.

Look at the martial arts that are collaborative. Boxers train with kickboxers. BJJers train with wrestlers and judokas. MMAers train with everyone. And this is because they have sparring which is the best vehicle for collaboration.

The collaborative martial arts are not the anecdotal martial arts.


Unfortunately collaboration courts loss. The very best anecdotes of streetfighting badassery make absolutely no difference when you get on the mat with someone. It either works or it doesn't.

So why don't we see Aikido guys out there mixing it up in the same filth with the rest of us?

Is it because they fear loss? And is that the real ego issue?

So those that make a stand hidden behind a wall of anecdotes suffer contempt from those that are exposed to defeat so often it doesn't even matter any more.

Not because they are good or bad. Rokus was never good. He wasn't even good at MMA. But because they were not honest. They were not willing to loose, look foolish, change their bias because of weight of evidence.

They are not willing to take martial arts out of religious experience and into reality.

There is a distinct difference between the "they" you are explaining and the "I" who is speaking to you. Nothing I have said has advocated a religious approach to martial arts, a series of dogmatic absolutes requires more blind faith than a single man sharing a personal story.

 

[Martial D]

I think there's a few crossover fights we could reference that show some UFC champs having issues against Boxers.


I disagree regarding my line of argument. Guys commenting outside their knowledge base to shout down and disrespect other systems is kind of everything wrong in martial arts. The ego behind the dojo wars stuff is why we don't have a more collaborative atmosphere between systems and schools and while it may appear to effectively popularize people's chosen system for a time, it hampers the growth of the community as a whole. I'd rather have a community built on mutual respect and collaboration with some personal anecdotes thrown in than what we have now where very few people encourage their peers to check their ego's instead of trying to demean or belittle what other people are doing.

You can take this conversation as a microcosm of that problem, of the detractors, you are the only one to sit down and go point by point after some coaxing to have a legitimate discussion. While you have been fairly cranky at times, you have made good points and we have had some productive discussion. Despite this, however, our ability to even have a discussion starts with one of us being willing to trust and honor the anecdotal data point that the other one has some basis of knowledge and expertise that gives their words merit. The problem with the dogpile crowd is a lack of reciprocity in that same respect. I gave you my abbreviated CV as a fighter, like you have provided yours, not to grandstand but to establish a baseline of where I was drawing that information from, in hopes of receiving the basic level of respect that I am who I claim to be. So far, while we have disagreed, its mostly been on a point to point basis, not through ad hominem attacks or disingenuous argument. You are the exception to the others, who have been far less good natured in their approach to our talk.

I get it, people see an Aikido dogpile and it looks great, so they jump in. I've ceded almost every possible point brought up about Aikido and given a pretty honest depiction from my point of view as to what it is and isn't. The only thing I have said in its favor is that the system itself, despite its flaws and problems, is valuable, applicable and worth saving. That singular statement has spawned challenges to fight, some Steven Segal commentary, a proverbial buffet of ad hominem attacks, strawman arguments, gas lighting and general fury that I won't concede Aikido as an imaginary martial art to the court of public opinion. Why exactly would I do that when I have years of experience with using it successfully? I'm not trying to get your fifty bucks or trying to teach you anything, I'm just disagreeing with you on the internet based on my personal experience. Last time I checked, for my purposes, my real experience outweighs the opinions of some guys on the internet who are saying things I know to be false.

You have had other people offer the same, which is all this thread really is, opinion, yet for the boo Aikido group here, there's an expectation of anyone in favor of Aikido to prostrate themselves before some supposed truth which doesn't exist. My experience tells me otherwise and I don't require your external validation, I have no intention of sharing your viewpoint when that viewpoint is invalidated by my own experiences and understanding. Do you need to believe me or the other LEO that hopped in here? Nope. You can argue the point just like you can disbelieve a stop sign or doubt the intentions of someone yelling fire, but your doubt is not an objective truth, both our arguments are subjective to our personal experience. My lack of proof and subjective personal experience do not justify or invite a contemptuous response, that response is what is being chosen by personal ego and hubris on the part of those responding.

You know. Some of us have been here for years...

You aren't the first guy to come in here with strong claims and anecdotes and acted upset to have them questioned.

And for all your strong wording about haters and dogpiling that's all that has happened here. Even though the many times in this thread you have raged out and resorted to ad hominem attacks nobody has returned that favor to you.

If you fly into a new forum where you don't know anyone, as you have, and make strong claims without any evidence, as you have, the reaction you have recieved is pretty par for the course.

Where you see this reaction as the problem , some others see this sort of emotionally fueled stand based on unsupported and unsupportable premise as a long standing problem pervasive throughout traditional martial arts as the real problem. One that needs to be squashed.

 

[Shatteredzen]

You know. Some of us have been here for years...

You aren't the first guy to come in here with strong claims and anecdotes and acted upset to have them questioned.

And for all your strong wording about haters and dogpiling that's all that has happened here. Even though the many times in this thread you have raged out and resorted to ad hominem attacks nobody has returned that favor to you.

If you fly into a new forum where you don't know anyone, as you have, and make strong claims without any evidence, as you have, the reaction you have recieved is pretty par for the course.

Where you see this reaction as the problem , some others see this sort of emotionally fueled stand based on unsupported and unsupportable premise as a long standing problem pervasive throughout traditional martial arts as the real problem. One that needs to be squashed.

Wow, what thread are you reading? First, I've been cheerful throughout this, you feel threatened and "raged" on because you are having your position challenged and you don't have any supporting argument other than wanting to have the last word. Working through logic knots with people who are using simple logical fallacy is me taking the time to help you see the problem with your own argument. Your seniority on an internet martial arts board doesn't mean anything and it doesn't strengthen the logical position you have taken.

You have taken the absolute position of "this doesn't work", its the entirety of your argument. You have to be right, 100% without exception for that position to be true. Two different internet martial arts nerds have told you, "not really, it works". All that made up mojo in your head about how long you have lurked this board berating Aikido peeps, irrelevant, your argument is null and void, its one internet nerd versus two, your mileage may vary. I stated in my first or second post that its impossible to "prove" a martial arts discussion on the internet, that hasn't changed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we compare wrestling, Judo, and Aikido, we can see that their contact points are different.

- Wrestlers like to control the shoulder gate.
- Judo guys like to control the elbow gate.
- Aikido guys like to control the wrist gate.

Why are the difference? IMO, the closer the control, the less mobility your opponent will have.

I have never seen "arm wrapping" used in Aikido. Do Aikido guys give their opponent too much freedom (such as free elbow joints)?

 

[Hanzou]

If we compare wrestling, Judo, and Aikido, we can see that their contact points are different.

- Wrestlers like to control the shoulder gate.
- Judo guys like to control the elbow gate.
- Aikido guys like to control the wrist gate.

Why are the difference?

You're forgetting Bjj which combines all three.

Anyway, Aikido is different because the training methodology is different. Judo and Wrestling have a competitive sport component which forces live, full contact sparring on a near consistent basis. Aikido doesn't have that, so you have less than realistic sparring that leads to (IMO) unsatisfactory results.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're forgetting Bjj which combines all three.

Anyway, Aikido is different because the training methodology is different. Judo and Wrestling have a competitive sport component which forces live, full contact sparring on a near consistent basis. Aikido doesn't have that, so you have less than realistic sparring that leads to (IMO) unsatisfactory results.

Without testing, the common sense tell me, when you

- grab on my wrist, if my elbow joint is free,
- throw me, if my legs are free,

I can still do a lot of things.

 

[Hanzou]

Without testing, the common sense tell me, when you grab on my wrist, if my elbow joint is free, I can still do a lot of things.

Well this is why you need to constantly test. You need to understand how to react to countless reactions from what you're doing. You get that from sparring, since everyone you roll with is going to have a different reaction to your standard process of attack. For example, if my bread and butter is takedown/Kesa Gatame/head and arm choke, sparring lets me practice my bread and butter against skinny people, fat people, muscle heads, neck beards, etc. Thus when I really need to do my bread and butter, I'm highly prepared to do so.

If all you're doing is two-person katas with a compliant uke, you're not going to be as well prepared.

 

[Shatteredzen]

If we compare wrestling, Judo, and Aikido, we can see that their contact points are different.

- Wrestlers like to control the shoulder gate.
- Judo guys like to control the elbow gate.
- Aikido guys like to control the wrist gate.

Why are the difference? IMO, the closer the control, the less mobility your opponent will have.

The first two could still be examples of Aikido. There is a fixation on the wrist stuff, Aikido is heavy on wrist techniques for weapon disarms but these get overused or over emphasized. The wrist stuff works better when you have a sympathetic reflex to continue to grip, while holding an object like a knife or already grabbing something like a gi. The wrist lock is more a counter to a grab, I would advocate someone entering their opponents line of attack to go deeper like you are talking about and to break the line of movement at the source near the shoulder.

One thing that keeps getting overlooked here is what the Aikido tool basket is. Its roughly 60 to 100 techniques designed to fill in niche stuff not answered in Judo or Ju Jitsu. The budo were not developed in isolation and the practice of learning Aikido by itself is a post war, post pacifist thing. I might find myself in a position where a judo throw makes more sense than an Aikido technique, or I miss the Aikido technique and have to force something or switch to something more akin to striking or Judo. Much of this argument is trying to force Aikido to be something its not and to make it stand up to an imaginary "standard" of effectiveness that it at least did not claim under its premise.

If I am grabbed by a drunk for example, I have what option from Judo? While a Judo technique will work fine, I can choose to use an Aikido technique to remove the grip and ground the drunk with no real damage to the aggressor. I know the macho kid thing is to say "why wouldnt you pick the most effective technique?" Aside from it being a personal choice some might like to make, the most practical reason might even just be simple liability. I dont want to risk escalating or feeding into this confrontation so lets toss the guy around a bit and everyone goes home with some wounded pride. The deaths and serious injuries from fights usually involve someone striking their head on the ground after being punched for example, if I dont want to risk slamming the guy on the ground, maybe a wrist grab will work because I know I can transition to an arm bar if I miss. Aikido is about more options and a different approach, not the "best" option for maybe damage, but maybe the best option for a bad situation.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Well this is why you need to constantly test. You need to understand how to react to countless reactions from what you're doing. You get that from sparring, since everyone you roll with is going to have a different reaction to your standard process of attack. For example, if my bread and butter is takedown/Kesa Gatame/head and arm choke, sparring lets me practice my bread and butter against skinny people, fat people, muscle heads, neck beards, etc. Thus when I really need to do my bread and butter, I'm highly prepared to do so.

If all you're doing is two-person katas with a compliant uke, you're not going to be as well prepared.

I completely agree, thats why we can see Rokas BJJ instructor show the Aikido guy how to make his techniques work. Aikido would benefit from adopting these more modern methods. My point is that training is what dileneates practical application of Aikido and what we see in the demos.

 

[jobo]

You're forgetting Bjj which combines all three.

Anyway, Aikido is different because the training methodology is different. Judo and Wrestling have a competitive sport component which forces live, full contact sparring on a near consistent basis. Aikido doesn't have that, so you have less than realistic sparring that leads to (IMO) unsatisfactory results.

judo only forces live full contact if you chose to go the sports route, otherwise it forces nothing at all

 

[Shatteredzen]

judo only forces live full contact if you chose to go the sports route, otherwise it forces nothing at all

it's even in the name lol

 

[Hanzou]

judo only forces live full contact if you chose to go the sports route, otherwise it forces nothing at all

I have never encountered a Judo dojo/club where they're not doing sparring/randori.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I have never encountered a Judo dojo/club where they're not doing sparring/randori.

It's a joke about force. Judo in Japanese is "the gentle way". It does not force you to do full contact sparring however, it gives you the option.

 

[drop bear]

I am grabbed by a drunk for example, I have what option from Judo? While a Judo technique will work fine, I can choose to use an Aikido technique to remove the grip and ground the drunk with no real damage to the aggressor. I know the macho kid thing is to say "why wouldnt you pick the most effective technique?" Aside from it being a personal choice some might like to make, the most practical reason might even just be simple liability.

Pretty sure judo has tools to defend grabs, throw people and pin them to the ground.

And of course they are tested and re tested in sparring, competition etc.

The argument would be which set of tools is more reliable.

And then we go back to resisted training vs compliant. Access to world champions vs access to who knows.

 

[drop bear]

It's a joke about force. Judo in Japanese is "the gentle way". It does not force you to do full contact sparring however, it gives you the option.

You have to compete to grade?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Pretty sure judo has tools to defend grabs, throw people and pin them to the ground.

And of course they are tested and re tested in sparring, competition etc.

The argument would be which set of tools is more reliable.

And then we go back to resisted training vs compliant. Access to world champions vs access to who knows.

This is like the BJJ in law enforcement example. You can use BJJ as a cop, but it puts you in a seriously screwed up position tactically, it exposes your firearm and then you have the problem of being on the ground to get picked off by the opponents friends. Believe it or not, there are lots of reasons to not go to the ground in a fight, once again, the UFC is not an end all be all example of effectiveness in martial arts, it highly favors grappling and ground fighting because you cannot strike the back of the head, the spine, a downed fighter, there's no head butting, no slamming a fighter on the ground, etc. Can you slam someone in Judo? Yes, I said this. If you need to go for the slam, then you use it. Once again, this is an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole. All of these techniques are situational and the Aikido complements the Judo, its not trying to replace it. BJJ has no striking, do we compare it to striking arts and say "well since it has no strikes, this system is imaginary", no, you train strikes, the striking complements the BJJ.

 

[jobo]

I have never encountered a Judo dojo/club where they're not doing sparring/randori.

how is that relivant? it sounds like anecdote to me

 

[jobo]

You have to compete to grade?

no you dont,

please write fact after your statement so I can get more points

 

[Shatteredzen]

You have to compete to grade?

Where? The two groups in the US and the Kodokan have never required competition or full contact anything to grade. I think USJI has a point system but that allows competition in Kata for the same points as sparring and even thats a suggestion and the grading is left to individual schools.

 

[drop bear]

This is like the BJJ in law enforcement example. You can use BJJ as a cop, but it puts you in a seriously screwed up position tactically, it exposes your firearm and then you have the problem of being on the ground to get picked off by the opponents friends. Believe it or not, there are lots of reasons to not go to the ground in a fight, once again, the UFC is not an end all be all example of effectiveness in martial arts, it highly favors grappling and ground fighting because you cannot strike the back of the head, the spine, a downed fighter, there's no head butting, no slamming a fighter on the ground, etc. Can you slam someone in Judo? Yes, I said this. If you need to go for the slam, then you use it. Once again, this is an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole. All of these techniques are situational and the Aikido complements the Judo, its not trying to replace it. BJJ has no striking, do we compare it to striking arts and say "well since it has no strikes, this system is imaginary", no, you train strikes, the striking complements the BJJ.

Aikido would be great if it works. Everone would love to do what Aikido people appear to do. But the best we have is a couple of guys say so. Mabye one or two guys in the world who can do it live. And a few examples of Aikido like techniques that have been successful in the street.

So the best most people have is that rolling around on the ground stuff. Because that actually kind of works in real life.

The throwing people to the ground, using gravity and positioning to keep them there and then applying restraints is just functionally more reliabe.