Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

The best way as an outside user to identify what's works in Aikido is to simply start with the simple stuff. Simple things are often things that we have seen work in various systems and in various levels of intensity. Many of the simple stuff are things that other people have the ability to to as well. This adds the validity without the need to actually see it. If I see Aikido do something that I'm often doing in Jow Ga then I can be comfortable about the function of it within Aikido. For example, how I notice the discussion about using the forearm to intercept a strike. I know it can be used against jabs so that gives me enough evidence to feel comfortable that it can be done in Aikido as well. I don't need an Aikido practitioner to actually prove this to me so long as how he describes it is accurate.

 

[drop bear]

The best way as an outside user to identify what's works in Aikido is to simply start with the simple stuff. Simple things are often things that we have seen work in various systems and in various levels of intensity. Many of the simple stuff are things that other people have the ability to to as well. This adds the validity without the need to actually see it. If I see Aikido do something that I'm often doing in Jow Ga then I can be comfortable about the function of it within Aikido. For example, how I notice the discussion about using the forearm to intercept a strike. I know it can be used against jabs so that gives me enough evidence to feel comfortable that it can be done in Aikido as well. I don't need an Aikido practitioner to actually prove this to me so long as how he describes it is accurate.

This is kind of false as well. Because we need to add this idea of the back of house needed to make a technique work.

So just because a guy uses the same technique really doesn't make it the same technique. And why white belts don't coach.

 

[drop bear]

nobody is forced to buy into anything

Ok then lay this stuff out so I can see it. Show me the working Aikido.

 

[jobo]

Ok then lay this stuff out so I can see it. Show me the working Aikido.

I said nothing about aikido, just a general statement that no one is forced to buy into it or any other ma, they always, it seems volunteer

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is kind of false as well. Because we need to add this idea of the back of house needed to make a technique work.

So just because a guy uses the same technique really doesn't make it the same technique. And why white belts don't coach.

If you get to this point, then you have gone beyond basics. A jab is a jab regardless of which technique you use to drive it. The concept is going to be the same across systems.

• A quick linear (straight forward) lead punch
• keep elbows in (close to your center)

No matter what system you are in. You can recognize this. You can give these 2 characteristics and tell someone who has never punched to punch in this manner the result will be a jab. We also know that these 2 things are effective for delivering a punch. So any variation of it knife hand, open palm, vertical fist. or finger strike that uses these 2 characteristics can be assumed to have similar practical use, since the only thing that is changing is the tip of the spear. Depending on the type of "spear tip you have" this same motion may not become more effective for close range or pushing the chin back. The motion that the jab uses doesn't become in effective just because it's not the same technique as the jab.

You don't want to look for the exact same technique. If you want to look for the exact same technique then you need to actually try using the exact same technique. The danger you'll have there, is that "exactly the same technique" will get you in trouble. Jow Ga has a reverse punch where you move your rear foot away first before you punch. To do the exact technique in this case would be foolish, because in this cash. This is a training technique and not an application technique.

From what I'm reading from people where. Aikido has a lot Training Techniques that help train you how to make the connections needed for the application of a technique. If you do exactly what you see then you run across the risk of invalidating a Training Technique as something that was never created to be used in application. That's why I was so stubborn with the "Aikido Chop" I needed to know if it's a Training Technique or an Application Technique.

If someone came up to me and told me Jow Ga didn't work because we stepped our foot out first before punching. Then I would say, That's training technique and not a fighting technique. Just like Speed Bag punching is a training technique and not an Application technique.

 

[drop bear]

I said nothing about aikido, just a general statement that no one is forced to buy into it or any other ma, they always, it seems volunteer

Like a pyramid scheme or a religion you need to buy in before you see results. And those results are always just one more step away.

Not that you are forced to do Aikido.

So for example I can't just go to a religion and ask them to show me this heaven I am theoretically going to get for an investment.

I have to go through the process to find out.

 

[jobo]

Like a pyramid scheme or a religion you need to buy in before you see results. And those results are always just one more step away.

Not that you are forced to do Aikido.

So for example I can't just go to a religion and ask them to show me this heaven I am theoretically going to get for an investment.

I have to go through the process to find out.

well you generally dont need to " invest" to get to heaven, but you due generaly have to die to do so.

so I cant see it's a reasonable comparison.

also in my exsperiance religious people tend to be happier than non, so even if no heaven, they received benifits for their participation,

I consider that's because superstition and ceremony are the natral state of human beings and naturalism is unnatural, this does of course leave them open to being manipulated, but no more so than simply watching tv

 

[drop bear]

well you generally dont need to " invest" to get to heaven, but you due generaly have to die to do so.

so I cant see it's a reasonable comparison.

also in my exsperiance religious people tend to be happier than non, so even if no heaven, they received benifits for their participation,

I consider that's because superstition and ceremony are the natral state of human beings and naturalism is unnatural, this does of course leave them open to being manipulated, but no more so than simply watching tv

No.

It is generally thought that you don't just die and go to heaven. You have to fill requirements on earth to be admitted. And this will change depending on the organisation. So you do need to invest in that organisation to enter a reward that you are never sure is real.

This is just like a martial art that will tell you there is this end point where you succeed. If you invest in their organisation. But you never see anyone reach this point.

There are considerable parallels between the two.

So we can look at a claim.

Why Yoshinkan Aikido? Above all, because it works!

And we get assurances without evidence of effectiveness.

miracles to convince people to believe?

 

[jobo]

No.

It is generally thought that you don't just die and go to heaven. You have to fill requirements on earth to be admitted. And this will change depending on the organisation. So you do need to invest in that organisation to enter a reward that you are never sure is real.

This is just like a martial art that will tell you there is this end point where you succeed. If you invest in their organisation. But you never see anyone reach this point.

There are considerable parallels between the two.

So we can look at a claim.

Why Yoshinkan Aikido? Above all, because it works!

And we get assurances without evidence of effectiveness.

miracles to convince people to believe?

are you talking about emotional investment or financial investment,

yes, religion requires emotional investment, ma however doesnt, so it's still not a good comparison, you have clearly emotionaly invested mma, that's not necessarily normal or healthy behaviour

 

[drop bear]

are you talking about emotional investment or financial investment,

yes, religion requires emotional investment, ma however doesnt, so it's still not a good comparison, you have clearly emotionaly invested mma, that's not necessarily normal or healthy behaviour

You quite often have to exhibit the right qualities to advance in martial arts. There is definitely an emotional investment in doing that.

If I was not emotionally invested. What criteria would I use to determine which martial art is the best choice?

 

[jobo]

You quite often have to exhibit the right qualities to advance in martial arts. There is definitely an emotional investment in doing that.

If I was not emotionally invested. What criteria would I use to determine which martial art is the best choice?

but that's the same as asking how do you choose the best religion for yourself, it rather depends on personal circumstances and aspirations or you might equal choose non at all as being the best fit

at the moment, you closly resemble a religious zealot, screaming everyone else is wrong if they dont see it your way

do you want to get punched in the head multiple time a week,,,, no? dont do mma

would seem a good starting point for a decision

 

[drop bear]

but that's the same as asking how do you choose the best religion for yourself, it rather depends on personal circumstances and aspirations or you might equal choose non at all as being the best fit

at the moment, you closly resemble a religious zealot, screaming everyone else is wrong if they dont see it your way

do you want to get punched in the head multiple time a week,,,, no? dont do mma

would seem a good starting point for a decision

Not really. Choosing the best martial arts on personal aspirations would be emotionally investing in it. Same as religion.

So the zealot would argue the emotion not the evidence.

 

[jobo]

Not really. Choosing the best martial arts on personal aspirations would be emotionally investing in it. Same as religion.

So the zealot would argue the emotion not the evidence.

youd be emotionally invested in the asperation not the art if your invested at all

people can have an aspiration to have a green car, and choose accordingly, they are not emotional invested in the car, they are invested in the colour , preference in colour is a major factor in car choice, you may think they bought a poor car and you may be right, but its their aspiration and their choice

 

[drop bear]

youd be emotionally invested in the asperation not the art if your invested at all

people can have an aspiration to have a green car, and choose accordingly, they are not emotional invested in the car, they are invested in the colour , preference in colour is a major factor in car choice, you may think they bought a poor car and you may be right, but its their aspiration and their choice

So you cant just look objectively at the better car?

It has to be the car that makes you look cool or something.

 

[jobo]

So you cant just look objectively at the better car?

It has to be the car that makes you look cool or something.

I can but lots of people cant, shiny, check, green , check il have it,

I usualy end up sorting them out, I hesitate to say its normaly women, but it is mostly women and quite a few young men

 

[drop bear]

I can but lots of people cant, shiny, check, green , check il have it,

I usualy end up sorting them out, I hesitate to say its normaly women, but it is mostly women and quite a few young men

Ok then how would you objectively measure an art?

 

[jobo]

Ok then how would you objectively measure an art?

as soon as you call it art, then it becomes totally subjective,

do you not remember, the rows they had in the Olympics when they awarded an objective score for artistic merit, cant be done

 

[Shatteredzen]

Ok then lay this stuff out so I can see it. Show me the working Aikido.

I've linked several of this guys videos, its the best example I have of someone going step by step through practical Aikido.

https://www.youtube.com/c/AikidoflowLondon/videos

I would hesitantly endorse most of this guys channel, I say that not having seen all of his videos, but enough to say that I agree with much of his thoughts and applications of Aikido on a practical level. You ask for video of working Aikido, the stuff he is teaching here can and does work and its basically just vanilla Aikido, end of story.

I get that its easier to link videos of nonsense and poke fun at it, its way easier to be an absurdist than it is to have a serious discussion. Are there tons of Aikido videos with guys doing uke/nage with zero resistance, sure, the same thing comes up under most systems, to include BJJ when you get a bad instructor and a cult of personality. Is Aikido all nonsense? Well the same wristlocks show up in every police officers defensive tactics course and they were sure a part of the Marine Corps martial arts program, same thing with the throws, arm bars, etc.

Does practical Aikido look the same in a real fight as it does in the dojo? Nope, neither does karate, ju-jitsu or any other Japanese unarmed or armed martial art, that doesn't mean the systems are garbage, don't work or are invisible. Here's a video from UF pro showing a "martial artist" trying to defend against knife attacks, it looks the exact same as what I would expect one of my students to look like during the same kind of exercise:

Take a look at any martial art out of context such as BJJ or "MMA" for example, its common, even in the UFC, to see an MMA fighter square up on their back against a standing opponent. If you lay on your back in a real fight you are going to be kicked in the legs, groin and face until you get off your back or go unconscious. It's also very common to see fighters expose part or all of the back of their head and spine to an opponent who has at least one free arm, which would be an instant target for anyone outside of a ring to strike, but we dont see it in MMA because there are strict rules against targeting the neck/spine. There are no kicks to the knees in MMA, and when not prohibited outright they are largely not used by fighters in fear of a reprisal knee strike. Fights are stopped once one of the competitors is cut, knocked out, etc.

Comparing everything to MMA is as much wishing on practical magic as anything. Iado cutting drills look nothing like a sword fight, yet we don't have the same arguments about whether or not they work or are an example of real martial arts. BJJ sparring does not simulate a real fight, the entire martial art contains no strikes, yet we don't have the same argument. Aikido has a lot of sillyness attached to it, I get it, between the post war peace and love stuff and all of the hippy garbage that got poured into it here during the karate boom, its maybe the easiest target for mockery. This "show me the real Aikido or it doesn't exist" is a logical fallacy, I would no more expect to see a guy throwing karate chops on the street than I would someone starting a fight by kneeling down in front of them and getting on their knees like in BJJ.

I can see footage from decent schools here and in Japan and see people who at least know the technique and are applying it in uke/nage fairly well, enough to make it "work on the street" from a technical point of view. Whether those people have trained themselves to be actual "fighters" who can apply it in the real world is something else and I can notice the same issues in any other martial arts school. If I walked into any dojo in the country, regardless of style, I'd be hard pressed to find more than a tiny handful (if any) training there who could "practically apply" their skills in a real world scenario and even less who would then be captured on CCTV or camera footage who looked as if they were using good technique. Most people go their whole lives without a serious fight, even fewer people have multiple fights, so if we are talking about "combative martial arts" how is it that Aikido techniques and methods consistently show up in law enforcement and military unarmed combative systems where the actual chance of using the techniques are higher than the rest of society?

Ask a few police or security guard/bouncer types how many times they have used a "come along" pain compliance technique like a wrist, finger or arm lock or a grounding throw or a joint manipulation take down and you will likely end up hearing about an Aikido/Judo technique being used. Does this mean Aikido is the end all, be all martial art? No. Am I saying Aikido is a holistic system that does not require or benefit from blending with another style? No. I would say, like any martial art, you will need more than any one system to reach a competent level of experience and technique that will make you well rounded. I also think that to make it practical you are going to have to pair it with at least one other discipline, meaning Judo/Boxing/etc but I would say the same about Judo/Boxing or any other martial art. The Japanese martial arts, especially, were modular in nature and you were expected to learn multiple ryu to be a competent warrior as a samurai or even full time Ashigaru being retained as a man at arms.

 

[drop bear]

Is Aikido all nonsense? Well the same wristlocks show up in every police officers defensive tactics course

Don't even get me started there.

 

[drop bear]

as soon as you call it art, then it becomes totally subjective,

do you not remember, the rows they had in the Olympics when they awarded an objective score for artistic merit, cant be done

Then don't call it art.