Aikido.. The reality?

[Martial D]

Think of it like this. Say you want to cross a road, but you have been taught only to hop across on one leg.

Eventually, you will be hopping across that road pretty quickly, with enough practice.

But rarely faster than the guy that runs.

 

[drop bear]

Also, his coach feels that the way he delivers his elbows reflects his WC training. Heck, everyone uses elbows, but there are differences in delivery and execution.

And sorry. The way he delivered downward elbows from a dominant position is his Chun?

All elbows thrown from the top are devastating due to the position they are thrown from.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

reduce myself to basic kickboxing ...

both fighters look to be taking a pretty straight up MMA approach blending kicking, striking and grappling. I don't see any really visible TMA.

they can be doing wing chun but look like boxers.

In fighting, you guys may assume that there is a big difference between TMA, kickboxing, and MMA.

If you ask me what's the difference between a

- long fist hook punch, kickboxing hook punch, MMA hook punch?
- long fist side kick, kickboxing side kick, MMA side kick?
- ...

I won't be able to explain the difference.

A tool is just a tool. No matter where it may come from, it's up to you to decide how to use it.

 

[drop bear]

In fighting, you guys all assume that there is a big difference between TMA, kickboxing, and MMA.

If you ask me what's the difference between a

- long fist hook punch, kickboxing hook punch, MMA hook punch?
- long fist side kick, kickboxing side kick, MMA side kick?
- ...

I won't be able to explain the difference.

A tool is just a tool. No matter where it may come from, it depends on how you may want to use it.

You have to make the difference. Otherwise it would be based solely on performance.

Same reason self defence people do it.

Pugilists have been the most obvious at this. So they have the stance that bare knuckle boxing is a unique skill set. So they can't just box because it isn't their speciality.

Until bare knuckle promotions came in and none of them did very well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You have to make the difference. Otherwise it would be based solely on performance.

Same reason self defence people do it.

I throw a right jab, my opponent blocks my punch to his left. I then throw a left hook to his right.

Am I using long fist, kickboxing, or MMA?

 

[drop bear]

I throw a right jab, my opponent blocks my punch to his left. I then throw a left hook to his right.

Am I using long fist, kickboxing, or MMA?

It depends. If you are getting bashed by a boxer. Do you abandon your system and learn his?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It depends. If you are getting bashed by a boxer. Do you abandon your system and learn his?

No! I will keep kicking his belly, leg, and knee. My leg is longer than his arm.

 

[drop bear]

I don't really "champion their efforts". I enjoy kata for what it is to me, and use it in my training and teaching for specific purposes. And when kata is brought up I tend to share my experience with it and why I use it. What I think folks (myself included) mostly get out of those exercises is a chance to move in different ways without a partner, and something they can work on when injured. Not much of a claim there, really.

And, no, I've literally NEVER dismissed XMA kata as un-useful. I suspect it's at least as useful as what I use. That's a blatantly false claim. You're either being deceitful, or just demonstrating that you prefer to work with your bias rather than pay attention to what I actually said.

As for me sounding defensive, I'm really just annoyed that you bothered to jump in to ask for proof of something apparently without the slightest notion what was being discussed. Now you're trying to project emotions on me, which is really just more annoying. If you want to challenge something I've said here, find it and actually refer to it. Otherwise, what the exact heck are you up to?

The issue is there are levels. And that context has meaning. Without that context your statements have no meaning.

So for example I train Aikido.

But in context I train Aikido without an instructor or any formal training. And basically I just wrist lock fools.

So should I say I train Aikido. And just leave an empty pit where that context should be. I am not exactly telling the full story. And generally not telling the full story to myself.

This is especially prevalent to comments like I spar, I flow roll, I street fight, I randori.

Because these could literally mean anything.

 

[drop bear]

No! I will keep kicking his belly, leg, and knee. My leg is longer than his arm.

Not the point of the question. And it is not a competition.

There are boxers who I can't kick my way out of beating.

The point is that at some stage you need to make a choice. Either adjust the art that was comfortable. That fueled your ego and gave you a standing as a martial artist.

Or continue that art but adjust your perception of reality to create this circumstance where you really are doing the right thing.

This is where your kung fu punch becomes different to a boxers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is where your kung fu punch becomes different to a boxers.

You assume the boxer's punch is better than the Kung Fu guy's punch. This may be true, but the Kung Fu guys still have the kicking skill and wrestling skill that boxers don't have.

Will I try to punch like a boxer does? No, I won't. I will try to disable a boxer's punching ability ASAP. By using A simple single leg take down, the boxer won't be able to punch me any more.

I have no shame to admit that boxing has better punching skill than most of the TMA have. Even my teacher had to train boxing when he was in the Central Guoshu Institute.

 

[Flying Crane]

You assume the boxer's punch is better than the Kung Fu guy's punch.

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I make no such assumptions. I do not automatically believe that a boxer’s Approach to punching is supreme.

But that’s just me. One’s mileage may very.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I do not automatically believe that a boxer’s Approach to punching is supreme.

If A and B spend the same amount of training time.

- A trains boxing (punch only).
- B trains TMA (punch + kick).

A will have better punch skill that B has. But B will have kicking skill that A doesn't have.

 

[drop bear]

You assume the boxer's punch is better than the Kung Fu guy's punch. This may be true, but the Kung Fu guys still have the kicking skill and wrestling skill that boxers don't have.

Will I try to punch like a boxer does? No, I won't. I will try to disable a boxer's punching ability ASAP. By using A simple single leg take down, the boxer won't be able to punch me any more.

I have no shame to admit that boxing has better punching skill than most of the TMA have. Even my teacher had to train boxing when he was in the Central Guoshu Institute.

And this is how you tell the difference between stylistic moves that should technically be interchangeable.

 

[drop bear]

If A and B spend the same amount of training time.

- A trains boxing (punch only).
- B trains TMA (punch + kick).

A will have better punch skill that B has. But B will have kicking skill that A doesn't have.

Not really. Not without context. So if you spent 6 months in maywhethers dog house. Your punching would be better than you could get in a lot of places regardless of the time invested.

You could then use the extra time to develop your kicking or grappling skills.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They weren't sparring hard untill jow gar wanted to escalate.

yeah I didn't like that too much. Not the escalation part but how and maybe the why he did it. He was out skilled with no "Entry Game" so out of frustration he upped the intensity got caught in a clinch and was worse off. The guy he was sparring with had a lot of control so it was just missed opportunity to fail figure out some Jow Ga in the process. instead he failed and learned nothing in return. The kick boxer got more out it because he worked his techniques, clinch, knees, low kicks, high kicks.

But it is good to know when to abandon your art and start protecting yourself.

All of his sparring videos are like that one. Even the ones he seems to be dominating. He won't learn the techniques unless he gives it a good try to do so. This is where MMA excels. They are taught a technique and they go out and try it until they can get good enough with the technique for it to be reliable.

I am also going to suggest that due to the nature of jow gar and the big movements it used. You almost would always need 16oz gloves on or otherwise you would be trying to stop start. And you would be shooting yourself in the foot a bit.

yep. you are right about that. It's a big shot in the foot. Both of them.

 

[Flying Crane]

If A and B spend the same amount of training time.

- A trains boxing (punch only).
- B trains TMA (punch + kick).

A will have better punch skill that B has. But B will have kicking skill that A doesn't have.

What if A and B spend equal time and similar intensity developing their punches, according to their respective methodologies? No clear answer there.

 

[drop bear]

yeah I didn't like that too much. Not the escalation part but how and maybe the why he did it. He was out skilled with no "Entry Game" so out of frustration he upped the intensity got caught in a clinch and was worse off. The guy he was sparring with had a lot of control so it was just missed opportunity to fail figure out some Jow Ga in the process. instead he failed and learned nothing in return. The kick boxer got more out it because he worked his techniques, clinch, knees, low kicks, high kicks.

All of his sparring videos are like that one. Even the ones he seems to be dominating. He won't learn the techniques unless he gives it a good try to do so. This is where MMA excels. They are taught a technique and they go out and try it until they can get good enough with the technique for it to be reliable.

yep. you are right about that. It's a big shot in the foot. Both of them.

That other guy could have bashed him at that point. And I assumed that happened when the video conveniently stopped mid round.


By the way it might be easier to jow gar live if you can already kickbox because you at least have an idea of what is going on before you attempt to add the extra complexity that is a stylistic demand.

So basic kickboxing sparring might actually help the jow gar sparring. By giving a frame of reference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I said what I'm up to. I'm interested in what you think you get out of them, and whether you actually get what you think. And really, "you" is generic. You in this case, and others in general. That's pretty much all I'm ever up to.

How did kata become part of this discussion????

Take a few deep breaths, and if you're still not willing to answer the question, that's okay. Just do us both a favor and if you're not going to answer, don't respond at all.

You're being ridiculous, Steve. If you'd actually bothered to read my previous post, I actually answered that question already. But go ahead and act sanctimonious and righteous about me not answering questions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue is there are levels. And that context has meaning. Without that context your statements have no meaning.

So for example I train Aikido.

But in context I train Aikido without an instructor or any formal training. And basically I just wrist lock fools.

So should I say I train Aikido. And just leave an empty pit where that context should be. I am not exactly telling the full story. And generally not telling the full story to myself.

This is especially prevalent to comments like I spar, I flow roll, I street fight, I randori.

Because these could literally mean anything.

Sure, they could mean anything. That's why we have words and question marks, so we can discuss and get the context that leads to understanding. But if you then decide whatever I say I do must be proven, it gets more than a little tedious. I say, "I like to use a heavy bag to work on that." If the reply is, "Video or I don't believe it" then there's really no way to carry on a reasonable discussion. If your reply is something like "Do you work that in combinations at the bag?" or something to clarify the meaning (because "use a heavy bag" covers a huge area of drills), then we get somewhere.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So basic kickboxing sparring might actually help the jow gar sparring.

You may never see a head lock followed by an uppercut used in boxing, or kickboxing.

IMO, the TMA can help the boxing and kickboxing a lot. Not the other way around.

In TMA, a punch can be used to obtain a clinch. Not sure people do that in boxing or kickboxing.