Aikido hate

[Steve]

i have no dog in this hunt. I'm just calling them what they say they want to be called. If they wanted to be called aiki-dokeys it's fine by me.

 

[jobo]

Yes. You're not unique either Jobo. When yu get down to the Newtonian physics of a punch, when thrown full power, it's coming at you in the speed range of a baseball (though some guy's fists are the size o softballs), so it is not as hard to catch a punch as people think, especially if the catching action is performed with both hands. It can be effective, but I don't personally like it. It's a personal thing, like my preference for the open hand strikes now instead of fists. I used to use fists all the time, and they worked just fine, then I started using open hand stuff and ended up feeling.... better about that. No clue why.

But, yes, catching a punch isn't that difficult, though keeping a hold of it when the person wants it back might be.

I didn't say catching punches was desirables, just that someone said it was impossible ,and as is the way on this forum immediately went to extremes to prove their point by sighting iron mike as a punch you could catch, which is i suppose true, but then if faced with the esteemed Mr Tyson I would be running away rather than trying to catch his bombs.

to be honest its not something I would try as a considered move, but as an instinctive reaction to something move fast at the edge of my vision, I have caught the wrist of the puncher and it does seem to freak them out when you do so

 

[JP3]

I didn't say catching punches was desirables, just that someone said it was impossible ,and as is the way on this forum immediately went to extremes to prove their point by sighting iron mike as a punch you could catch, which is i suppose true, but then if faced with the esteemed Mr Tyson I would be running away rather than trying to catch his bombs.

to be honest its not something I would try as a considered move, but as an instinctive reaction to something move fast at the edge of my vision, I have caught the wrist of the puncher and it does seem to freak them out when you do so

My bad, I misunderstood you I think.

What I was referring to wasn't catching/trapping the wrist, I really did mean catching the punch as it's flying towards your face/head/body. The Sheriff's Deputy/Prison Guard instructor guy I've mentioned on here was talking about it once. He was discussing it like all it really needed was a change in mindset about what it is that's coming in. Think of the fist coming in as a baseball, and just catch it... then swarm up the arm intot he body with... whatever showed up. He could do it scary good, but it appeared to be something he'd worked on a lot.

 

[TSDTexan]

My bad, I misunderstood you I think.

What I was referring to wasn't catching/trapping the wrist, I really did mean catching the punch as it's flying towards your face/head/body. The Sheriff's Deputy/Prison Guard instructor guy I've mentioned on here was talking about it once. He was discussing it like all it really needed was a change in mindset about what it is that's coming in. Think of the fist coming in as a baseball, and just catch it... then swarm up the arm intot he body with... whatever showed up. He could do it scary good, but it appeared to be something he'd worked on a lot.

That's crazy. But maybe incorporated with tai subaki

 

[CB Jones]

If they wanted to be called aiki-dokeys it's fine by me.

I vote for this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you think that is a real thing?

Yes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Everyone keeps telling me that and to this minute I do not believe it one bit.

I actually had a training partner tell me a story (yep, just a story, DB) about someone applying a lock on him suddenly, and he rather instinctively jumped into a fall when it locked faster and harder than expected. He wasn't trained for those high breakfalls, but it turns out he could do them with enough motivation. The jump into the fall was the protection from that lock. There are ways to practice the locks that don't require those breakfalls (we normally don't need them), and there are ways to practice them that require the breakfalls. I'd rather not do on a regular basis the version that requires them, so my partners don't develop the habit of pre-jumping into them. Of course, if partners are honest with each other, they can also share after the fall whether the technique took them to the "point of". I've occasionally taken a fall, then realized the person let off the technique just when it felt like they were going to lock it. I always tell them when that happens, so they don't get that false sense that what they did would have been effective had I not been protecting my wrist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am pretty sure i have seen reversals in akido to that lock.

Ok. another thing I just thought of. You have done a flying leap in to the deck.

Then what?

This does not look like a fun position to fight on from.

There are definitely reversals and counters to all techniques. Those should be part of the learning process. And IMO students should also learn how to use their weight in a fall (sutemi waza) as part of a takedown of their partner/opponent. This is not uncommon in wrestling and Judo, and should definitely be trained in Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok While I was hunting around I found this. Now this move actually works. But for some reason the partner is still throwing himself into the deck. And there is no risk to a limb really at all here.

Am I just looking at bad aikido here?

I think you're looking at a bad habit, which can become common in some Aikido schools.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i agree with both view points. you cannot capture a proper punch. this is something that aikido gets a lot of flack for and its deserved at times and other times no. the attack in the video is over extended and hangs out there in space. a proper punch should snap back to a guard position, making most aikido technique impossible.
that being said this is not really a punch its mune-tsuki. it represents a lunging action which would more closely resemble a knife thrust then a punch.
if on the street an assailant thrust a knife in that manner at an aikidoka then the technique would work, ...problem...its not often assailants attack like that.

I wouldn't say that a proper punch makes most Aikido techniques impossible. It simply means they have to be executed differently. In many Aikido schools, they only seem to practice against these over-extended attacks, and that's a problem, IMO (assuming they are training to be able to defend). It's a great way to practice exercising aiki, but it fails to train the other side of techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Roy Dean is a really good example of what I'm talking about. He's a high level Bjj practitioner who incorporates Aikido into his personal style. If you ever see him fight or roll he's doing about 95% Bjj and 5% Aikido. I think those amazing Aikidoka from the early days (like Gozo Shioda and Koichi Tohei)
were probably doing 95% Judo and 5% Aikido.

Nothing against Aikido, but it really appears to be a capstone to decades of training in something else.

I agree this is the case with the way many schools train their Aikido. And you're probably right (I can't speak to the percentages) about the early students. They were all skilled in something else before their Aikido training, and that combination made them formidable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd agree with this, but for me it stops short of the complete picture of what I want out of my uke, depending on what I'm "learning" at the time. When in "learning kata" mode, it's precisely right. Attack with intention, react as the best martial artist int he room would as to bringing yourself back on-balance and good posture, and... be there. That is to learn and feel where the technique is supposed to live.

However, once the info of the above has been learned, and variations on the entry into it explored, then I do want my uke to (here's that progressive resistance thing again) start to be that dick, start to not comply, start trying to get away from the technique, or even yet, to counterattack or to continue with the next available attack to them.

Granted, that's getting into randori.

Agreed. At what point do you guys start getting into that mode, JP?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know how much an aikidoist uses, but I use as little as possible. We should ask Gerry.

Aikidoist. Ack. I guess it's better than Aikidoer.

I'm not even sure how we would measure that, JP. Some blends, I'm exerting very force, because I'm just slipping past the attack. Others, the attack is more contained, so I'm using an explosive entry. But I'm getting lazy as my knees yell at me more, and I do less of the explosive entry. I'm more likely to abandon blending and respond with a harder version of the techniques.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree this is the case with the way many schools train their Aikido. And you're probably right (I can't speak to the percentages) about the early students. They were all skilled in something else before their Aikido training, and that combination made them formidable.

I found this over in the Aikido section, originally posted by Spinedoc;

The Future of Aikido - Ikazuchi Dojo

Roy Dean discussing the future of Aikido. It's quite interesting, since he believes that Aikido is "dying", and he wants to discuss Aikido effectiveness with Joe Rogan.

Aikido losing popularity doesn't surprise me. I've run across many former Aikidoka who migrated to Bjj and MMA because they feel that Aikido is ineffective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

More correct. Says you.

Well, actually... says them. 20 years in and I've never heard the term aikidoist until this very board. A person is a judoka as soon as they put on a judogi and get on the mat, not a very good judoka but a judoka nonetheless. Aikido person, same-same imo.

Again. Aikidoist. Ack. Would they be Wing Chunists? Karaticians? Muay Thai'i?

I've always heard folks in NGA referred to as "Aikidoka", regardless of rank. Mind you, we have little link to the traditions of Japan, so we're less likely to follow some of those finer points.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I found this over in the Aikido section, originally posted by Spinedoc;

The Future of Aikido - Ikazuchi Dojo

Roy Dean discussing the future of Aikido. It's quite interesting, since he believes that Aikido is "dying", and he wants to discuss Aikido effectiveness with Joe Rogan.

Aikido losing popularity doesn't surprise me. I've run across many former Aikidoka who migrated to Bjj and MMA because they feel that Aikido is ineffective.

This was one of Stan Pranin's concerns, too. I'd like to see two branches of Aikido grow:
1) Aikido with a built-in base of strikes and non-aiki techniques (this probably exists in Yoshinkan, maybe in Tomiki's branch, too).
2) Aikido as an advanced add-on (as it started with Shioda et al).

 

[JP3]

That's crazy. But maybe incorporated with tai subaki

Like I said, it's not MY thing, but he had me do it. I can punch, and he had me do so. Slide into range and fire, he said he didn't care if it was right or left, he'd catch it with both hands anyway, so I slid in and stuck him with a jab. Probably my best, most useful punch, my jab since I've got these gibbon-like arms and have good handspeed. He just stood there, slid his head back maybe a couple inches and brought his hands together like a fielder - literally the same way an second baseman would catch a line drive. Smack, right into his palms. I was already doing my trained thing, and he said, "Well shoot. I'm out of practice." I... uh... declined to go down that road. That road leads to meanness from old guys who think you're being uppity.

 

[JP3]

Agreed. At what point do you guys start getting into that mode, JP?

It's sort of case by case basis, Gerry. For instance, I'm not doing it right now since I've only got the two black belts in class, and I've stuck them with the problem of learning a one of the advanced kata well enough so that the Nidan can rank up... maybe by the end of the year. He could do that.

But, before, with those same guys, we did a bit of this. I've done it before with brown belts who were excelling, but only with a very limited ... scope of engagement I'd guess I'd call it. For example, I'd not switch gears on them from saying "You've got to watch out for the foot being swept sometimes in this position..."" and then raise the ante to a leg-kick, if you see what I mean. Not only have some/most of them not ever seen that technique, most haven't even rea the book. Some don't even know the book exists yet. So, it's dumbed down.

New-ish school, trying to not run off the students.

 

[TSDTexan]

Like I said, it's not MY thing, but he had me do it. I can punch, and he had me do so. Slide into range and fire, he said he didn't care if it was right or left, he'd catch it with both hands anyway, so I slid in and stuck him with a jab. Probably my best, most useful punch, my jab since I've got these gibbon-like arms and have good handspeed. He just stood there, slid his head back maybe a couple inches and brought his hands together like a fielder - literally the same way an second baseman would catch a line drive. Smack, right into his palms. I was already doing my trained thing, and he said, "Well shoot. I'm out of practice." I... uh... declined to go down that road. That road leads to meanness from old guys who think you're being uppity.

Scary

 

[drop bear]

This was one of Stan Pranin's concerns, too. I'd like to see two branches of Aikido grow:
1) Aikido with a built-in base of strikes and non-aiki techniques (this probably exists in Yoshinkan, maybe in Tomiki's branch, too).
2) Aikido as an advanced add-on (as it started with Shioda et al).

Yeah but you can still fall into the same traps if you train in the same manner.