Aikido: Confronting a Crisis

[drop bear]

Yes, this is true. I was asking Drop Bear because he spoke of a time when he remembered aikido as functional. The difficulty was we have no idea of what function he was referring to - hence my questions on his understanding of the word and how it applies to his martial arts - further to this I was enquiring as to his thoughts on the function of aikido now. If we do not ask for clarification, then how do we understand what it is we are actually discussing?

There was a time when people thought you could Aikido someone who did not want to be Aikidoed successfully. Because that appeared to be the case.

Before people realised it was non competitive.

And I assume that was when it was more popular.

 

[drop bear]

Aikido is the way of harmony

And what evidence do you have that it succeeds in that?

 

[Flying Crane]

That's fun until the dojo closes because of a lack of members.

I guess that hasn’t been an issue for me so far.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Ok. So what is the point of Aikido?

I tried to keep my personal opinions of Aikido out of this, but what I'm thinking is this:

- Is aikido a new age/spiritual thing? There's yoga and other similar things that fulfill this need better than aikido.

- Is aikido a self-defense art? If you want a stand-up grappling art that's going to fulfill this need, then judo is your best bet. Not only is it proven to work against actual resistance, but the dojos are far more numerous and easier to find.

- Is aikido a dance with a partner? If that's what you need, it's always easier to find ballroom/salsa/bachata, etc dancing lessons; and they're much easier to find. Furthermore, you don't have to fall. And I'm sure that when you walk onto the dance floor in an actual ballroom setting, the staff would probably appreciate you not doing things that you learned in aikido.

It's basically that 3-in-1 shampoo/conditioner/body wash that you still feel icky after using. That is, if you're seeking out aikido for one of the three above reasons.

If aikido is to succeed, it has to find another way to market itself.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

And what evidence do you have that it succeeds in that?

Aikido was a fun martial art to study. I made a bunch of good mates. We experimented with many different principles and techniques. The weapons work and randori practice gave us a good understanding of range and application for the techniques we learned during classes. There were Dan grades from Karate, Judo and other martial arts who had taken up the study of aikido. They shared their experience freely and we started blending techniques and methods from other arts within the aikido sessions. There was a great camaraderie within the club and we happily discussed the principles of harmony and how to apply them in our daily lives. Make of this what you will

 

[drop bear]

I tried to keep my personal opinions of Aikido out of this, but what I'm thinking is this:

- Is aikido a new age/spiritual thing? There's yoga and other similar things that fulfill this need better than aikido.

- Is aikido a self-defense art? If you want a stand-up grappling art that's going to fulfill this need, then judo is your best bet. Not only is it proven to work against actual resistance, but the dojos are far more numerous and easier to find.

- Is aikido a dance with a partner? If that's what you need, it's always easier to find ballroom/salsa/bachata, etc dancing lessons; and they're much easier to find. Furthermore, you don't have to fall. And I'm sure that when you walk onto the dance floor in an actual ballroom setting, the staff would probably appreciate you not doing things that you learned in aikido.

It's basically that 3-in-1 shampoo/conditioner/body wash that you still feel icky after using. That is, if you're seeking out aikido for one of the three above reasons.

If aikido is to succeed, it has to find another way to market itself.

Also I think yoga, self defence and dance can achieve what they claim.

 

[Hanshi]

In my school we offered aikido and hapkido and in fact the opportunity to study more than just one art. My black belts taught some of these other classes and success or failure in #1 art had no bearing on advancement in any other art. Yes, there was flow back and forth; I mean a front kick is still a front kick, etc. #2 art did lag behind #1 but with so much crossover of technique they often got shodan in #2 faster than they would have by finishing one art and then starting at the bottom on #2. I always recommended to students to at least get familiar with one more art regardless whether or not any rank was sought.

 

[Flying Crane]

I tried to keep my personal opinions of Aikido out of this, but what I'm thinking is this:

- Is aikido a new age/spiritual thing? There's yoga and other similar things that fulfill this need better than aikido.

- Is aikido a self-defense art? If you want a stand-up grappling art that's going to fulfill this need, then judo is your best bet. Not only is it proven to work against actual resistance, but the dojos are far more numerous and easier to find.

- Is aikido a dance with a partner? If that's what you need, it's always easier to find ballroom/salsa/bachata, etc dancing lessons; and they're much easier to find. Furthermore, you don't have to fall. And I'm sure that when you walk onto the dance floor in an actual ballroom setting, the staff would probably appreciate you not doing things that you learned in aikido.

It's basically that 3-in-1 shampoo/conditioner/body wash that you still feel icky after using. That is, if you're seeking out aikido for one of the three above reasons.

If aikido is to succeed, it has to find another way to market itself.

I’m just going to be blunt: this is one of the most uneducated posts Ive seen here in a long time.

Carry on.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I’m just going to be blunt: this is one of the most uneducated posts Ive seen here in a long time.

Carry on.

That's what I think of your response, so we're even.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Also I think yoga, self defence and dance can achieve what they claim.

The 70's Kung Fu actors were in great shape, flexible, fast. A lot of those old arts were immortalized that way. A good thing.

I mean, do you want to be a killer? Or to dance like that.

I'll take both, dude.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Full disclosure, I've been into Aikido for about 20 years. And dance about 30, which corresponded to just about the time I became a man and learned how to move with a partner.

Aikido's only crisis is a lack of people willing to throw down. I would be the first one willing to submit to powerful Aiki forces. But we don't see a lot of evidence out there. It's as if Aikido fell into this sort of trap. "Let's go to the tape".

I thought it was very cool how The Walking Dead dealt with Aikido. If you'd been doing it for a while, you immediately got the need for it.

Does Aikido prepare you for zombies? Sure. I think so, based on all the Aikido videos I've seen.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Here we have these organisations called the men's shed.

And it is precisely designed to be that bonding, personal development stuff.

But they also learn skills that are real measurable skills.

It is not something you have to do away with to create a system like that.

Now if you are trying to encourage new people to take up these clubs and you have the same personal development but in one you actually acquire something as well. Then obviously it is going to be better.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Aikido has transformed my life and many of those around me. Our art is true modern Budo — forged with philosophy of compassion and positive creation. Aikido develops our bodies, sharpens our minds, and teaches us what it means to be a good human being. The world needs aikido more than ever - Josh Gold

Of course, we don’t propose teaching people self-defense skills quickly like krav maga. People come to aikido because they want something deeper and more unique, but we have to make it more appealing and relevant to modern society. The main purpose of budo is not just self-defense, but also personal development and growth. As teachers, we have to show how it works and how our students progress and benefit from it. I believe that if people experience the benefits of traditional budo, more people will be drawn to it - Christian Tisser

 

[Cynik75]

Aikido has transformed my life and many of those around me. Our art is true modern Budo — forged with philosophy of compassion and positive creation. Aikido develops our bodies, sharpens our minds, and teaches us what it means to be a good human being. The world needs aikido more than ever - Josh Gold

Of course, we don’t propose teaching people self-defense skills quickly like krav maga. People come to aikido because they want something deeper and more unique, but we have to make it more appealing and relevant to modern society. The main purpose of budo is not just self-defense, but also personal development and growth. As teachers, we have to show how it works and how our students progress and benefit from it. I believe that if people experience the benefits of traditional budo, more people will be drawn to it - Christian Tisser

This such a big mountain of ******** that I even can not express this with my poor english. Mr Tissier statement is selfish and boastful: I do aikido so I am positive, philisopical, full of compassion person who achieved personal development and growth. Nope.
Personal development and growth can be achievedby nearly all kinds of human activity. Period.
By knotting, carpentry, baby sitting, cooking etc. Budo, aikido are not unique.
I believe that if Mr. Tissier ecepriences the benefits of painting or nordic walking he would be drawn to it.
The only thing what differs aikido from other human activities is the martial part - throwing, choking, hitting, breaking. And this is the part where aikido fails.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Do many of your aikido students cross-train in other martial arts or movement practices that are going on there?

Yes, some go to jiu-jitsu because it’s a good complement to aikido. It’s a different kind of practice, but can be very beneficial. Some of them also take karate lessons. I tell my young people, ranked sandan, yondan, or godan; if they want to become professional, they should do some karate or boxing a little bit to see something else and gain martial experience

This comes from the interview with Christian Tisser

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Do many of your aikido students cross-train in other martial arts or movement practices that are going on there?

Yes, some go to jiu-jitsu because it’s a good complement to aikido. It’s a different kind of practice, but can be very beneficial. Some of them also take karate lessons. I tell my young people, ranked sandan, yondan, or godan; if they want to become professional, they should do some karate or boxing a little bit to see something else and gain martial experience

This comes from the interview with Christian Tisser

This is also from the same interview:

My dojo in Paris is also doing fine. Probably similar to most dojos after the pandemic. We have lost some students, like everyone else, but things are running very well at the moment.

In regards to the history of Cercle Tissier – I started teaching at the dojo when I returned from Japan in 1977, and I bought it in 1980, so I now own the building. I used to teach every day until I moved to the South of France in 1990. At that time, I decided to entrust the management to others. I continued to visit the dojo every week, twice a week for about 30 years. Now I visit two or three times a month for two days.

There are many different arts and disciplines that are practiced there, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, dance, and aikido, of course.

Yes, we have about 3,000 people practicing there. We have aikido, different kinds of dance, yoga, kajukenbo, boxing, jiu-jitsu, krav maga, karate, kobudo, and many other martial arts. Aikido was the main activity for a long time, but it’s not the case anymore. Maybe because I’m not there enough. The other people teaching are very good, but when you are the boss of a dojo, people prefer you to be there.

A Conversation with Christian Tissier – Aikido Journal

aikidojournal.com

He seems to me to quite an open-minded and generous guy who is doing a lot to promote the benefits of martial arts and other movement practices at his dojo

 

[Buka]

I love this thread. Interestingly enough, at least to me, I really like, understand and agree with everything that everyone has said.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Personal development and growth can be achievedby nearly all kinds of human activity. Period.
By knotting, carpentry, baby sitting, cooking etc. Budo, aikido are not unique.

This is true. But ...

The specific kinds of human activity that a person will find conducive to personal growth are particular to that individual. One person might find enlightenment through mathematics, another through carpentry, another through Aikido. A person who finds their life transformed through karate may not experience anything special from practicing pottery and vice-versa.

So if someone finds their life enriched through practice of Aikido, then more power to them. If they're getting what they want out of it. who am I to tell them otherwise?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Also I think yoga, self defence and dance can achieve what they claim.

So, in your opinion, Aikido doesn't move like Aikido? That's a foolish idea. You can do better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I tried to keep my personal opinions of Aikido out of this, but what I'm thinking is this:

- Is aikido a new age/spiritual thing? There's yoga and other similar things that fulfill this need better than aikido.

- Is aikido a self-defense art? If you want a stand-up grappling art that's going to fulfill this need, then judo is your best bet. Not only is it proven to work against actual resistance, but the dojos are far more numerous and easier to find.

- Is aikido a dance with a partner? If that's what you need, it's always easier to find ballroom/salsa/bachata, etc dancing lessons; and they're much easier to find. Furthermore, you don't have to fall. And I'm sure that when you walk onto the dance floor in an actual ballroom setting, the staff would probably appreciate you not doing things that you learned in aikido.

It's basically that 3-in-1 shampoo/conditioner/body wash that you still feel icky after using. That is, if you're seeking out aikido for one of the three above reasons.

If aikido is to succeed, it has to find another way to market itself.

Similar claims (something else can do each of the pieces of what you do) can be made about pretty much anything, depending how you break it down. It's like choosing the statistics to fit an argument.

For the first (spiritual), I challenge you to define any reasonable metric for your claim that something (literally anything is better at this. For some folks, Aikido fits perfectly their philosophical interest.

For self-defense, yeah, the way it's taught (and arguably the range of techniques typically practiced) is suboptimal. But at the same time, many folks training with a self-defense orientation aren't really looking for optimal training. They're looking for training that can help them improve skills that can apply in that context, and that interests them enough (often in other ways) to keep their interest. I agree about Judo having a stronger foundation. There is a strong body of evidence that parts (pretty large parts) of Aikido work against resistance, within Shotokan Aikido (which, interestingly, has a lot of Judo within it, at least in spirit).

As for the dance with a partner thing, that's just a spurious argument. I could easily argue ballroom dancing is better dance with a partner than square dancing. Or vice-versa. This is another where there's no reasonable way to support your claim - you're just looking for something bad to say about an art you aren't fond of.

My advice to you: don't train Aikido if you're not interested in it, and leave it for those who are.

(My advice to Aikido should be well-known to the long-timers here: add some resistance and depth if you want to train for self-defense.)