Aikido: Confronting a Crisis

[Flying Crane]

While I think membership has declined, it does still seem to be doing relatively well, compared to more esoteric arts.

What does “doing well” even mean in this context? Aikido is not a business that needs to continually expand its presence globally so that it can keep paying quarterly dividends to its shareholders. People will keep doing it. Sometimes fewer people, sometimes more, depending on trends and fads and whatever the flavor of the month is that is currently capitalizing on the short attention span of the general population. The flavor of the month is welcome to those people.

 

[MetalBoar]

I don’t know the numbers, but it’s my impression Aikido doesn’t have the membership it once did, so I think “decline” might be fair.

It would be interesting if we had any data on this, as opposed to anecdotes. It's hard for me to judge. It seems to be far healthier, at least in the Phoenix and Seattle metropolitan areas, (10th and 15th largest metropolitan areas in the US, and only significantly smaller than the 3 biggest) from my experience than a lot of traditional arts and healthier than most of the individual arts that make up MMA.

There are far more Aikido schools in both areas than dedicated Judo, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, or fencing schools and a similar number of TKD schools in both areas. There's a lot of kenpo in the Phoenix area but not as many kenpo as Aikido schools in Seattle. Karate of all sorts (not counting kenpo) and CMA (not counting Tai Chi) might each have the same or slightly more schools than Aikido does, but any given style has far fewer. Aikido schools appear to outnumber MMA schools in Seattle, though it looks like MMA has Aikido beat out here in Phoenix. BJJ, on the other hand, has Aikido outnumbered in both places by a significant number. In fact, it looks to me like BJJ is the new TKD.

There might be fewer Aikido schools and practitioners than there were in the early 90's, when Seagal had back to back movies in the theaters, but I'm not sure how the numbers really compare from then to now. Still, if this is decline, I'd be far more worried about the future of karate, kung fu, and Judo than I would be about Aikido, just based on the number of schools I see in these big cities. Unless of course, Aikido schools are losing students and closing at a faster rate.

 

[BobY777]

Aikido: Confronting a Crisis – Aikido Journal

aikidojournal.com

The following excerpt captured my attention:

Other traditional Japanese arts like Judo and Karate have 7-10X the interest, with an art like BJJ surpassing aikido by over 25x. Merely as an interesting data point, yoga, a non-competitive mind/body/spirit art, generates more interest than all the martial arts and fighting sports combined.

It's funny (and expectable) how your mentioning of yoga as a comparison created so much misconceptions :'D. Not much else to say about this . Those numbers are understable . It's first of all nice that yoga is so much more popular - I would gladly see ppl concentrating on their own well being than confronting others (which is what all martial arts are all about)
Also the popularity of bjj cause of UFC is understable. And the unpooularity of aikido. Aikido is extremely difficult and hard to grasp as a concept.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would gladly see ppl concentrating on their own well being than confronting others (which is what all martial arts are all about)

MA training has 3 different stages:

1. When you are young, you try to develop your foundation. You concentrate on your personal development.
2. After you have developed your foundation, you try to test your MA skill against others.
3. When you get older, you try to use your MA to maintain your health and live a long life. You concentrate on your personal development again.

Of course, you can skip stage 2. But IMO, your MA training is not complete.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

This is where people shoot themselves in the face. I don't know why so many martial arts schools think that training self-defense is independent of personal development and growth.

Can you honestly train self-defense and not get personal development and growth? Schools speak of self-defense as if it's naturally void of personal development and growth. Stuff like that drives me nuts because it makes things seem more than what it really is and gives people the ideal that self-development and growth can't be achieved by punching someone in the face.

I just don't get it. Sparring helps to promote self-development and growth. It requires that one manages their anger, frustration, and failures. It helps to promote focus and relieve stress. This is a true statement about sparring. How does something go through that and not develop as an individual? How does someone go through that and not grow?

You know what makes a tree strong? Resistance and adjusting to cope with that resistance.
You know what makes a tree weak? Hydroponics lol.


You know what makes people feel at peace. Security, and the knowledge that if something got physical that they will have the skills to ensure their safety.

I'm off my soap box now. lol

There are plenty of responses in this thread which illustrate a lack of personal development and growth. It is entirely possible to train in a self-defense art yet still lack empathy and respect for other people and their chosen way of life. It amazes me how many people on this forum are desperate to trash other systems and get so angry about martial arts they have never even practiced.

 

[drop bear]

Here's an interview. He mentions some of the things that I mentioned earlier. He seems very down to earth about Aikido here. A bit to spiritual for me on some of his videos but I think, I get it. A lot of what he describes seems more like how Athletes "get in the zone."

I don't know if he sparred or not but some of the things, he says are some of the same things I've learned through sparring. From the little bit that I watched from videos it seems that at the very least he has worked against resisting partners. To be honest I don't think one can flow without experiencing resistance. I can't learn to learn to feel the change in flow without resistance.

When I do push hands, My goal is to detect resistance and to hide resistance at the same time. But either way, it can't just be one person yielding all the time.

Yeah. So the appeal of rokus is he is doing things with Aikido rather than demonstrating them or talking about them.

Now the issue is people identify good at Aikido in different ways. And so being actually able to use it at all may not count.

But for me someone who can use it in a mediocre way is better than someone who can demonstrate it expertly.

 

[drop bear]

There are plenty of responses in this thread which illustrate a lack of personal development and growth. It is entirely possible to train in a self-defense art yet still lack empathy and respect for other people and their chosen way of life. It amazes me how many people on this forum are desperate to trash other systems and get so angry about martial arts they have never even practiced.

If we are discussing self defence. Then the art should have to earn its place at the table. Otherwise we all lack integrity.

Because results are important.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

If we are discussing self defence. Then the art should have to earn its place at the table. Otherwise we all lack integrity.

Because results are important.

If you are happy practicing your chosen martial art that is enough. A discussion need not break-down into throwing insults at other people or particular martial arts. The anger and lack of respect here on the forum astounds me. One of the first things my instructors in martial arts taught were to honour and respect others and their chosen way of life. Of course, martial arts attracts a number of people with low self-esteem who are wishing to prove their worth becoming big, tough and strong, but beating down other martial artists and their chosen systems is not the sign of a healthy frame of mind.

 

[drop bear]

If you are happy practicing your chosen martial art that is enough. A discussion need not break-down into throwing insults at other people or particular martial arts. The anger and lack of respect here on the forum astounds me. One of the first things my instructors in martial arts taught were to honour and respect others and their chosen way of life. Of course, martial arts attracts a number of people with low self-esteem who are wishing to prove their worth becoming big, tough and strong, but beating down other martial artists and their chosen systems is not the sign of a healthy frame of mind.

For the purposes of fun or personal expression you are correct.

For the purposes of self defence you are not correct.

Because then we move in to the business of selling lies to vulnerable people. Which I don't think people should do.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And this the problem with aikido - it does not deliver anything what cannot be delivered to people by other forms of activity. As somebody has written before about spritual, self-defence and dance (gimnastic?) aspects - other activities deliver better product.
BJJ sucks in teachining people how to punch, but if somebody wants to learn groundfighting his first choice should be BJJ.
Boxing sucks in teachining people how to grapple, but but if somebody wants to learn nosebreaking his first choice should be boxing.
What can be delivered by aikido what cannot be delivered better by other activities?
The market demand for low quality selfdefence mixed with low quality gymnastics mixed with low quality philosophy (all for not the lowest price) is not very high, so the aikido is in the crysis.

This quote was in response to a quote of mine responding to a quote of yours. And that original quote was in reference to personal growth., not punching or groundfighting.

There is empirical evidence that boxing teaches punching better than BJJ or Aikido.
There is empirical evidence that BJJ teaches ground fighting better than boxing or Aikido.
There is no empirical evidence that BJJ or boxing teach personal growth better (or worse) than Aikido.

(Neither of us has provided a definition for "personal growth", but for the sake of the current discussion in this context I'll say it refers to an activity that helps make someone happier, healthier, being more of the person they want to be, living the kind of life they want to live, and having better integration of mind and body. Feel free to insert your own definition - I don't think it will change anything.)

You might say "well, if <insert other activity> can provide personal growth as well as Aikido does and also provides some other verifiable benefit, why not do that instead?" Which brings me back to my original point. A person can find personal growth in most activities if it is the right activity for that individual. I've learned a lot of life lessons and grown as a person through my decades of martial arts practice. Theoretically I could have learned those same lessons via ballroom dancing. But I wouldn't have. Because I have no passion for ballroom dancing and would never have explored in such a way as would have taught me those lessons.

mixed with low quality philosophy

I'm not sure how you measure "low quality philosophy". But here's something I've come to understand over the years. Official credos recited in class and philosophical treatises written by the founder of an art have fairly minimal effect on the kind of personal growth a person gets out of a martial art. What matters is the embodied practice of the art and the dedication of the individual to finding ways to apply the lessons of that embodied practice to their life outside the dojo.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You asked rhetorical questions. That’s clear because you also answered them.



So, if an art is intended for self-defense, it is automatically better at that than any art not so designed? It should be obvious that’s flawed logic at both ends.

And on top of that, that’s not a metric. There’s no measuring involved- just a subjective assumption.

As for your question - I have no idea, and I don’t think you do, either.

If you're going to dismiss what I'm saying because you want to stay mad, then do that.

So, somehow a ballroom dancer’s interest in Aikido has something to do with its worth?? Where are you wandering to with this line of reasoning?

And you also seem to now be saying Aikido is reasonable dance - you seemed to be arguing the opposite last time.

No. I said that ballroom dancing is better than aikido IF learning how to dance is what you're looking for. BUT, if aikido is available and ballroom dancing lessons are not (an unlikely scenario), could aikido possibly be a substitute?

Except it was you who decided to include dance, using it as a derogatory comparison - and I’ve never seen an Aikdo school offer dance as a selling point. Your post doesn’t read as an attempt to inquire, but an attempt to stir things up.

Ah, so:

Comparing aikido to yoga: not a derogatory comparison
Comparing aikido to judo: not a derogatory comparison
Comparing aikido to ballroom dancing: a derogatory comparison

I've never stated anything negative about any of the three things that I've compared aikido to do. If you personally have a level of respect for yoga and judo that you do not have for ballroom dancing, that's all you. Don't put that on me.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Official credos recited in class and philosophical treatises written by the founder of an art have fairly minimal effect on the kind of personal growth a person gets out of a martial art. What matters is the embodied practice of the art and the dedication of the individual to finding ways to apply the lessons of that embodied practice to their life outside the dojo.

This is something I am full agreement with. The students of the martial arts are but a reflection of their teachers. If the teacher embodies the principles and is a good solid role-model to their students, they too will become a living example of those teachings.

 

[O'Malley]

I'm not sure how you measure "low quality philosophy". But here's something I've come to understand over the years. Official credos recited in class and philosophical treatises written by the founder of an art have fairly minimal effect on the kind of personal growth a person gets out of a martial art. What matters is the embodied practice of the art and the dedication of the individual to finding ways to apply the lessons of that embodied practice to their life outside the dojo.

That's interesting. I'm not into modern aikido but it arguably emphasises that transition (from the mat to everyday life) more than other disciplines I've come across, and the teachings are simple enough to be applicable in daily life.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That's interesting. I'm not into modern aikido but it arguably emphasises that transition (from the mat to everyday life) more than other disciplines I've come across, and the teachings are simple enough to be applicable in daily life.

Some arts do emphasize the philosophy and the connection between training on the mat and everyday life more than others. Theoretically, you would expect those arts to be more likely to produce students who exemplify those philosophies in their personal lives. But based on my personal observations over the decades, it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

That's fun until the dojo closes because of a lack of members.

This has happened to me on a number of occasions, either that or I have relocated. The solution is simple, see what other martial arts schools are in the area and pick one. All the knowledge gained from your previous art will not be lost, and you will gain additional knowledge from the next martial practice. It is also good for seeing combat from a new perspective and reminding you that nothing last forever in this lifetime

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Some arts do emphasize the philosophy and the connection between training on the mat and everyday life more than others. Theoretically, you would expect those arts to be more likely to produce students who exemplify those philosophies in their personal lives. But based on my personal observations over the decades, it doesn't seem to be the case.

Did the class instructors embody the philosophies in your personal observations?

I am also curious to know how were you able to observe these students in their personal lives?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am also curious to know how were you able to observe these students in their personal lives

I'm basing my observations on the individuals I've known personally and interacted with from a wide variety of martial arts over the last 42 years or so. Obviously it's not a truly random sample and I have no way of observing every student from a given school throughout the course of their daily lives. But it's a large enough sample that I would expect to see some sort of correlation if certain arts consistently produced students who exemplified the philosophical ideals of their system more than others.

Did the class instructors embody the philosophies in your personal observations?

Some do, some don't, in varying degrees. I haven't so far observed that it depends so much on the particular art. I do think that when an instructor exemplifies a certain philosophy, their students are more likely to do the same. But I'm not sure whether that's because the instructor acts as a role model or because instructors tend to attract and retain like minded students.

 

[drop bear]

Some arts do emphasize the philosophy and the connection between training on the mat and everyday life more than others. Theoretically, you would expect those arts to be more likely to produce students who exemplify those philosophies in their personal lives. But based on my personal observations over the decades, it doesn't seem to be the case.

It is probably about what you pay to gain.

So I think if we look at the ptsd treatment activities they tend to cost effort and discipline.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think the following are considered as "harmony".

By using a

- groin kick to set up a face punch.
- jab to set up a hook.
- shoulder lock to set up an elbow lock.
- hip throw to set up an inner hook.
- ...

You give first (groin kick, jab, shoulder lock, hip throw, ...). You then take afterward (face punch, hook, elbow lock, inner hook, ...)

None of those have any specific conflict with the principle that is Ben g translated as “harmony”.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What does “doing well” even mean in this context? Aikido is not a business that needs to continually expand its presence globally so that it can keep paying quarterly dividends to its shareholders. People will keep doing it. Sometimes fewer people, sometimes more, depending on trends and fads and whatever the flavor of the month is that is currently capitalizing on the short attention span of the general population. The flavor of the month is welcome to those people.

To me, an art is “doing well” when it has a reasonable population working on and in it, keeping it alive in practice. It’s a pretty vague definition on purpose.