Aikido by a high-ranking karateka and judoka - what do you think?

[JowGaWolf]

However, at 6:56 he steps to his right side while throwing a diagonal (rising) straight left.

The guy doesn't get hit with a left. The punch that lands is the reverse punch which he runs into. He probably only saw the left arm rising and never knew that the right reverse was even there. The effectiveness of that punch was largely due to the aggressive forward motion of the attack. We can actually see his face stop and his feet continue to go under as if he had ran into a clothesline or a low hanging board.

When that much forward pressure comes in, then it just multiplies the impact that is going to occur. Speaking from personal experience, the result would have been the same if he ran into a straightened arm that was held stiff. I tried to find videos of people walking into the end of planks to show the effect, but I wasn't able to find any.

 

[Buka]

Are you trying to describe the striking?

Because that is basically a check hook.

Basically yeah. But if the man teaching it in that vid has his rear hand that low he’s gonna get hooked in the head by any decent puncher.

From there everything is moot. (I watched My Cousin Vinnie again last night.)

 

[drop bear]

I've always liked Shoji Nishio, mostly because his moves were just beautiful to watch. For context, Nishio was a 4th dan in Kodokan judo (under Kyuzo Mifune) and 5th dan in Shindo Jinen-ryu karate (under Yasuhiro Konishi). He studied aikido under its founder, Morihei Ueshiba, eventually obtaining 8th dan, and later went on to obtain high ranks in iaido and jodo as well.

The interesting thing with Nishio was that, as an advanced practitioner of combative Japanese martial arts, he dared to adapt aikido techniques to his vision of martial effectiveness. This results in interesting technical quirks and setups revolving around strikes, which then end up in throws/pins.

As I'd like to incorporate some of his ideas into my own work, I'm not sure I could tell apart what would work and what wouldn't, and I could use some comments from experienced practitioners that know more about fighting than I do.

For example, in the video below, his explanations from 5:32 to 7:44 seem reasonable but I'd like to hear comments from other martial artists on whether it makes sense:

Likewise for the part from 15:09 to 16:27.

So, happy to hear your takes on this!

Can you do a video of exactly what you are trying to pull off?

I am getting confused with the positions and defending judo chops and stuff.

 

[marvin8]

Yes, makes sense so far. My concern was whether the positions he's demonstrating would translate into a live environment: I would tend to say yes, but some of you may see things that I don't.

From the start of the OP video, “The judo way of throwing… cannot be used in Aikido… In aikido, the opponent is unbalanced through the use of atemi [from a distance, not via gripping]... We don’t do it this way. When the opponent punches, we enter directly. Taking Initiative Instead of Blocking. This is not acceptable as a martial technique. Because when you parry him here, he will attack with the other hand. Block and counter. You can’t consider this way of doing it to be aikido… You have to have already defeated your opponent before being touched. You can’t attempt to grab after being struck. Our way of doing it is to enter, thus preventing him from striking. That’s how we execute the movement. Our way of grabbing is different too… In the usual way, you execute the movement after receiving the strike. We enter directly... We invite him to strike then enter… The hand that comes into contact with the opponent is to draw him out."

"We don't do it this way." With the front foot planted, the opponent can throw a feint, straight left, check hook or move back by pushing off the front foot...

“We are in this position.” From this position, the opponent is double weighted and hasn't landed his punch...

Shoji makes sense. His method follows universal concepts. It applies to both striking and throwing. There is empirical evidence that it works "live" in high level fighting.

 

[O'Malley]

Can you do a video of exactly what you are trying to pull off?

I am getting confused with the positions and defending judo chops and stuff.

I get that, the original discussion was more general then I kind of derailed it because I didn't understand a particular entry.

What I most wanted to know was how applicable Nishio's ideas were to a live environment, because if they work they would make a great setup for aikido techniques. I was looking for a general assessment but realised the video was quite long so I started pointing out specific examples. That would help me figure out whether I should dig deeper into that style and see what I can take away from videos like these, which shows throw setups from the jab:

 

[drop bear]

I would start with covers and clinching. Wrap them up then go for whatever arm control or back take.

That basically works the best and gives you the most time.

Once you can pull that of. Then mabye the hand trapping.

That takes away the need to be super slick at striking and gives you your grappling options.

 

[marvin8]

I would start with covers and clinching. Wrap them up then go for whatever arm control or back take.

That basically works the best and gives you the most time.

Once you can pull that of. Then mabye the hand trapping.

That takes away the need to be super slick at striking and gives you your grappling options.

From the start of the OP video, “The judo way of throwing… cannot be used in Aikido… In aikido, the opponent is unbalanced through the use of atemi [from a distance, not via gripping]."

However, controlling using the clinch then executing aikido technique is closer to wrestling, not aikido. Shoji shows moving with the opponent from a distance, entering, controlling the opponent's position then throwing...

https://imgur.com/trCMHJ3

 

[windwalker099]

The point is (for karate, not sure about CMA) is that it was NOT designed for system A vs system A use. Yet, this is the way it is commonly practiced in the dojo and in tournaments

In CMA for specialized skill sets it is.
There are unique competitions ie push hands and others.

Historically it was not, although it took a while before one was considered to be ready for outside challenges.
I think the main difference between east and west. In the east people were thought to be representative of the style over the person, while in the west it's the opposite.

The exception being in todays time for those who claim to represent a style not having the skill set of what they claim to represent..

There is a saying, "十年磨一剑" (shí nián mó yī jiàn), "ten years to sharpen a sword."
only applies if one is "sharping a sword" bad time to find out it wasn't really sword when called to use.

some history:

In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. “Either the challenger was maimed or killed,” noted Chin. “He never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the technique of cruelty.”

 

[JowGaWolf]

From the start of the OP video, “The judo way of throwing… cannot be used in Aikido… In aikido, the opponent is unbalanced through the use of atemi [from a distance, not via gripping]... We don’t do it this way. When the opponent punches, we enter directly. Taking Initiative Instead of Blocking. This is not acceptable as a martial technique. Because when you parry him here, he will attack with the other hand. Block and counter. You can’t consider this way of doing it to be aikido… You have to have already defeated your opponent before being touched. You can’t attempt to grab after being struck. Our way of doing it is to enter, thus preventing him from striking. That’s how we execute the movement. Our way of grabbing is different too… In the usual way, you execute the movement after receiving the strike. We enter directly... We invite him to strike then enter… The hand that comes into contact with the opponent is to draw him out."

"We don't do it this way." With the front foot planted, the opponent can throw a feint, straight left, check hook or move back by pushing off the front foot...

“We are in this position.” From this position, the opponent is double weighted and hasn't landed his punch...

Shoji makes sense. His method follows universal concepts. It applies to both striking and throwing. There is empirical evidence that it works "live" in high level fighting.

The problem is not the concept, it's everything else.
If your opponent punches like this then you can apply the concept this way. If your opponent moves around like a boxer then this concept cannot be applied in this manner.

This concept application will fail if you try to apply it as shown against this.

 

[windwalker099]

The problem is not the concept, it's everything else.
If your opponent punches like this then you can apply the concept this way. If your opponent moves around like a boxer then this concept cannot be applied in this manner.

Agree, it is fair to say that within specific geographical areas, fighting styles often have a distinctive flavor known to those within those regions.

When I look at how things might work, my metric is "boxing"

 

[JowGaWolf]

What I most wanted to know was how applicable Nishio's ideas were to a live environment, because if they work they would make a great setup for aikido techniques. I was looking for a general assessment but realised the video was quite long so I started pointing out specific examples.

The concept is sound, the application of it isn't. It's missing a lot of factors that exists in other systems and people in general.

For starters. Aikido should teach "Aikdo Students" proper striking guard. Basic Striking Rule. "The fist that is not punching should not be sleeping on your chest"

Second change should be the understanding that only Aikido does "Aikido Punching" It's almost the same as Jow Ga Punching, with the exception of the 3 systems that make up Jow Ga. But it would still hold hold true "Only Jow Ga does Jow Ga punching." Unless I fight someone from other similar kung fu systems, no one is going to punch at me with the same punching techniques.

Family doesn't fight Family. Family A fights Family B. System A fights system B. I do not train Jow Ga so I can beat someone else who does Jow Ga. I train Jow Ga so I can beat someone who doesn't train Jow Ga.

So when we train martial arts we must first define who we are training to defeat and then apply the concepts correctly against the system that our enemy uses.

 

[drop bear]

However, controlling using the clinch then executing aikido technique is closer to wrestling, not aikido. Shoji shows moving with the opponent from a distance, entering, controlling the opponent's position then throwing...

https://imgur.com/trCMHJ3

Yep.

When I bounced and used to hunt for standing wrist/arm control. There was a movement towards using Aikido to achieve that.

Grab the arm use their movement.

It just got people punched in the face.

The just do wrestling is a safer way to hit those positions.

You might be able to lean away from that a bit as your timing becomes better or the guy you fight is doing very good.

But you would still need to reset back to those wrestling positions when you get in danger.

 

[marvin8]

Ooh I see! It sounds similar to the way this karate teacher (heavily influenced by his aikido training) explains the concept of "entering body":

Rick uses economy of movement with the shuffle step and controls the opponent with the lead hand, while his opponent takes a full traditional step to throw the lead punch.

What I most wanted to know was how applicable Nishio's ideas were to a live environment, because if they work they would make a great setup for aikido techniques. I was looking for a general assessment but realised the video was quite long so I started pointing out specific examples. That would help me figure out whether I should dig deeper into that style and see what I can take away from videos like these, which shows throw setups from the jab:

It would be easier to determine if Nishio stylists executed aikido techniques in live sparring or fighting.

Rik Ellis, taught aikido by his father Henry Ellis from the age of five, competed in MMA.

 

[windwalker099]

Rik Ellis, taught aikido by his father Henry Ellis from the age of five, competed in MMA.

It would be good to know who the fathers teacher's was...
Aikido coming from different lines can be quite different in usage depending on line.

Told and felt by me, from a "Shihan" level practitioner long ago..

Others versed in the art might be able to explain it better or correct any misunderstandings.

 

[marvin8]

It would be good to know who the fathers teacher's was...

Kenshiro Abbe...

Henry Ellis
Oct 5, 2013

"Kenshiro Abbe the Forgotten Budoka" New Amazon book release 20-5-2021 " Kenshiro Abbe the Forgotten Budoka " the story of Abbe Sensei's life from childhood - training at the Butokukwai - Busen - competing in front of the Japanese Emperor - serving as a captain in the Imperial Japanese Army, the defeat of the great M Kimura - living in the UK and Europe, visit Amazon books for a free peek of this amazing valuable factual story complete with old photos. Visit Amazon books for a free `` Sneak Peek `` of this rare book.

 

[windwalker099]

what I was alluding to

from Chat GP

Kenshiro Abbe:

• Abbe was a prominent martial artist who studied under Ueshiba but also trained extensively in other martial arts such as Judo, Kendo, and Kyudo. When Abbe taught Aikido, he incorporated a more combative and pragmatic approach. His teachings were influenced by his diverse martial arts background, which made his Aikido slightly different from Ueshiba’s more spiritual and philosophical approach.

This fits with what I was told long ago and felt...
In HI at the time they had Aikido gyms reflecting both outlooks..
My friend trained at both...

 

[O'Malley]

However, controlling using the clinch then executing aikido technique is closer to wrestling, not aikido. Shoji shows moving with the opponent from a distance, entering, controlling the opponent's position then throwing...

https://imgur.com/trCMHJ3

From what I understand, the tactics of old jujutsu, from which aikido derives, are related to sumo, so both the use of strikes/thrusts or clinching would fit the bill.

The concept is sound, the application of it isn't. It's missing a lot of factors that exists in other systems and people in general.

For starters. Aikido should teach "Aikdo Students" proper striking guard. Basic Striking Rule. "The fist that is not punching should not be sleeping on your chest"

Second change should be the understanding that only Aikido does "Aikido Punching" It's almost the same as Jow Ga Punching, with the exception of the 3 systems that make up Jow Ga. But it would still hold hold true "Only Jow Ga does Jow Ga punching." Unless I fight someone from other similar kung fu systems, no one is going to punch at me with the same punching techniques.

Family doesn't fight Family. Family A fights Family B. System A fights system B. I do not train Jow Ga so I can beat someone else who does Jow Ga. I train Jow Ga so I can beat someone who doesn't train Jow Ga.

So when we train martial arts we must first define who we are training to defeat and then apply the concepts correctly against the system that our enemy uses.
View attachment 31841

Agreed, but to be fair to him he was probably looking at attacks from a karate perspective. The way he (not the student) chambers and guards with the non-striking hand is very karate-like.

Rick uses economy of movement with the shuffle step and controls the opponent with the lead hand, while his opponent takes a full traditional step to throw the lead punch.


It would be easier to determine if Nishio stylists executed aikido techniques in live sparring or fighting.

Rik Ellis, taught aikido by his father Henry Ellis from the age of five, competed in MMA.

Rik Ellis died at a very young age, a real shame. Interestingly, regarding what you mentioned earlier, Ellis would set up his aikido moves from the clinch.

Kenshiro Abbe...

Henry Ellis
Oct 5, 2013

"Kenshiro Abbe the Forgotten Budoka" New Amazon book release 20-5-2021 " Kenshiro Abbe the Forgotten Budoka " the story of Abbe Sensei's life from childhood - training at the Butokukwai - Busen - competing in front of the Japanese Emperor - serving as a captain in the Imperial Japanese Army, the defeat of the great M Kimura - living in the UK and Europe, visit Amazon books for a free peek of this amazing valuable factual story complete with old photos. Visit Amazon books for a free `` Sneak Peek `` of this rare book.

For more context, Kenshiro Abbe was an elite level judoka (one of the only four people to ever beat the famous Masahiko Kimura in competition) who spent ten years learning aikido after his encounter with Morihei Ueshiba, then brought the art to the UK. Like other earlier practitioners (e.g. his unrelated homonym Tadashi Abe) he'd also teach punches and kicks in addition to the typical locks and throws.

 

[Same Trick]

I’ve attended a couple of Nishio seminars back in Europe, the seminars held at the dojo I was a student.

Nishio was heavy on demonstrating his aikido using the Jo(staff) and Bokken(wooden sword), showing the relation of aikido empty hand techniques with sword techniques, and when doing the aikido technique using the sword it kind of guides one to be rightly positioned .

Nishio also had his unique way of turning his wrist during practice of wrist grab scenarios, a way he did with such timing one easily came off balance when grabbing.

Striking attacks in Aikido are usually done with the ridge of the open hand, in a way to resemble sword cutting/thrusting .
In the thread the common karate full step lounge punch was described and how such a method could prove to be unrealistic.
In Aikido the forward ridge hand thrust/strike (shomen-ate) is executed at closer distance and is more like a jab so defender has limited time for reaction.



I found this website and was surprised to see two pics from one of the seminars held at the dojo I was training at.
In the picture where guy that receive a counter ‘shomen-ate’ from Nishio Sensei is an old training mate of mine but most so in Karate. He moved to the US so maybe that’s why that picture is on that website.

The other pic where Nishio doing Koshinage, it looks as it’s our teacher that is about to taste the tatami, but I’m not sure, since half his face is hidden.

Well here’s the website link-



Shoji Nishio, Shihan | Shoji Nishio: Nishikaze Aikido Society of America



Sorry for the long post that might be off topic,I got a little nostalgic