Aikido Atemi for beginners

[Vhaen]

Hi!

I've been considering moving into Aikido for about ten years or so now since a really good experience with Aikido in my 20s. I last trained Bujinkan for about a year and have had a year or so off training due to personal stuff.

I've been lurking and reading this forum for a fair while now and picking up a lot of good information but I'd like some clarification on one issue.

Atemi. I read a lot of posts quoting that Aikido is (or was) 70% or more atemi and I would like to ask which families of Aikido have striking as part of the curriculum? Not so much where the instructor says "you could insert a strike here" approach but one that actively teaches the striking aspect?

I have been leaning towards Yoshinkan based on what I've read here and elsewhere. But I don't know if they teach to strike during or to assist technique.

Thanks for your time

 

[K-man]

Hi!

I've been considering moving into Aikido for about ten years or so now since a really good experience with Aikido in my 20s. I last trained Bujinkan for about a year and have had a year or so off training due to personal stuff.

I've been lurking and reading this forum for a fair while now and picking up a lot of good information but I'd like some clarification on one issue.

Atemi. I read a lot of posts quoting that Aikido is (or was) 70% or more atemi and I would like to ask which families of Aikido have striking as part of the curriculum? Not so much where the instructor says "you could insert a strike here" approach but one that actively teaches the striking aspect?

I have been leaning towards Yoshinkan based on what I've read here and elsewhere. But I don't know if they teach to strike during or to assist technique.

Thanks for your time

OK, I'll go first. I don't won't to put Yoshinkan down but I personally have problems with the tension that they display in their techniques. It is evident even in their basic kamai. In aikido if you apply strength to the technique, or even have the slightest tension in your arm, it will fail against a stronger opponent. I have never studied Yoshinkan so I am only commenting on they way I have seen them demonstrate their techniques, but they do seem to rely a lot on speed and strength.

The aikido I train is an offshoot of Aikikai and it is totally soft, but we do include the atemi. As to using atemi, I doubt any style actually uses it as a real strike in training, as it is really not required in any training situation if your technique is correct. In many instances the strike can almost be just a distraction. Now, according to his student, Gozo Shioda, it was Ueshiba himself who said that Aikido, in a real fight, was 70% atemi and 30% nage. You need to realise that a strike can be used in different ways. In karate, for example, our strikes are designed as finishing techniques. In Aikido, the strike is often used to shift your opponent's mind from one place to another to secure a hold or takedown.

So in Aikido training the instructor saying, "you can put in an atemi here" is, to my way of thinking, all you need. Most of the time Uke is working with you so there is no need for atemi. When you are testing your technique against resistance, you are doing just that. If you need to hit your partner to make your technique work, your technique is not right. A lot of Aikido ignores atemi totally as the belief is that an Aikidoka doesn't really want to hurt his opponent. I think that is incorrect and shows that anyone saying that does not understand the place of atemi in Aikido.
:asian:

 

[Spinedoc]

OK, I'll go first. I don't won't to put Yoshinkan down but I personally have problems with the tension that they display in their techniques. It is evident even in their basic kamai. In aikido if you apply strength to the technique, or even have the slightest tension in your arm, it will fail against a stronger opponent. I have never studied Yoshinkan so I am only commenting on they way I have seen them demonstrate their techniques, but they do seem to rely a lot on speed and strength.

The aikido I train is an offshoot of Aikikai and it is totally soft, but we do include the atemi. As to using atemi, I doubt any style actually uses it as a real strike in training, as it is really not required in any training situation if your technique is correct. In many instances the strike can almost be just a distraction. Now, according to his student, Gozo Shioda, it was Ueshiba himself who said that Aikido, in a real fight, was 70% atemi and 30% nage. You need to realise that a strike can be used in different ways. In karate, for example, our strikes are designed as finishing techniques. In Aikido, the strike is often used to shift your opponent's mind from one place to another to secure a hold or takedown.

So in Aikido training the instructor saying, "you can put in an atemi here" is, to my way of thinking, all you need. Most of the time Uke is working with you so there is no need for atemi. When you are testing your technique against resistance, you are doing just that. If you need to hit your partner to make your technique work, your technique is not right. A lot of Aikido ignores atemi totally as the belief is that an Aikidoka doesn't really want to hurt his opponent. I think that is incorrect and shows that anyone saying that does not understand the place of atemi in Aikido.
:asian:

Agreed with this. I'm still an Aikido novice, but the atemi we learn is primarily used to set up another technique, many times, it's a blend, atemi, deflect, apply technique and re-direct approach.

 

[Vhaen]

Thanks for the thoughts. K-Man what Aikido do you practise? It's probably in your profile but I'm having issues with my internet and a lot of pages aren't loading.

I found the the thread I was thinking of in relation to atemi http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/48006-Yesterday-I-discovered-a-new-Aikido. If that makes any more sense. From my admittedly brief Bujinkan background I'm used to throwing in a swift shuto or knee to facilitate a lock or throw.

i guess I'm mainly looking for a "martial" Aikido. The group I did a few sessions with years back was Kokikai I think. And I had no doubt whatsoever as to this particular groups self defence applications. The best man at my wedding was from this group and he worked as a bouncer at a fairly nasty club and at the time his only study was Aikido and he swore by it 100%.

I also very very briefly trained with a group who had no interest whatsoever in the martial side of the art.

I've had a change of heart towards aggression and violence as I've aged a little and the mindset of Aikido really appeals to me. However from my very limited experience of it it is a Martial art as well and I don't want to lose that.

Thanks

 

[K-man]

Thanks for the thoughts. K-Man what Aikido do you practise? It's probably in your profile but I'm having issues with my internet and a lot of pages aren't loading.

The Aikido teacher I have spent about 20 years with Aikikai before leaving to start his own school based on what was being taught in Aikikai and the teachings of Koichi Tohei. It is very much an internal style. I must admit that although I am now pretty confident I can rely on Aikido alone if it were ever required, I do have a strong karate grounding to fall back on.

I found the the thread I was thinking of in relation to atemi http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/48006-Yesterday-I-discovered-a-new-Aikido. If that makes any more sense. From my admittedly brief Bujinkan background I'm used to throwing in a swift shuto or knee to facilitate a lock or throw.

Yes, that thread pretty much sums it up. Normally the strike is a secondary part although it can be used pre-emptively to provide a predictable response to facilitate the capture of an arm prior to a locking technique. Most of our strikes are knuckle strikes to the rib area under the arm but techniques like sankyo give you the opportunity to strike the back of the neck or drive a knee into the face.

i guess I'm mainly looking for a "martial" Aikido. The group I did a few sessions with years back was Kokikai I think. And I had no doubt whatsoever as to this particular groups self defence applications. The best man at my wedding was from this group and he worked as a bouncer at a fairly nasty club and at the time his only study was Aikido and he swore by it 100%.

Aikido is excellent for control without damaging the person being controlled. That is a huge plus in a club environment with CCTV etc and the chance of assault charges if you step out of line.

I also very very briefly trained with a group who had no interest whatsoever in the martial side of the art.

Mmm! That wouldn't impress me at all. Every thing I train or teach has to be martial, or at least developing principles that aid in training the martial aspect. Outside Aikido many people poo-poo the Aikido people going along with a technique without understanding why we go with it.

I've had a change of heart towards aggression and violence as I've aged a little and the mindset of Aikido really appeals to me. However from my very limited experience of it it is a Martial art as well and I don't want to lose that.

Thanks

As I said earlier, don't get too hung up on atemi. The more advanced you become the less you need it anyway. Try out the school first. Normally they will offer a couple of free classes to ensure that you feel comfortable. Discuss it with the instructor, talk to some of the more senior students and base your judgement on how you feel about the place.
:asian:

 

[Vhaen]

Thanks to the above for the advice.

I'm going to check out a Bujinkan school here and if I don't like that I think I will visit the local Iwama Aikido school.

All the best.

 

[Shinjuku Kid]

interesting subject. started aikido not long ago ... not too worried about atemi. the spots/openings are apparent. rely on atemi too much and you miss developing other aspects of your technique.

psyched I finished reading a GREAT book about Aikido and MA. Aikido in Japan and The Way Less Traveled. Wow. about training in Japan, Tokyo, East Asia ... MMA, origins of BJJ, Aikido in China .... fun read. heavily footnoted. was pretty amazing. cool cover. really surprised. I was skeptical when my pal gave it to me .... Wow. think he got it on Amazon.

 

[Shinjuku Kid]

oh, but i do condition my hands for DOING atemi if/when needed .... still i'm more focused on basic footwork and posture and bodywork.