Aggression in aikido

[Yari]

But could you not add muscle and force at the end of your technique. Sort of like throwing a punch. You are relaxed when throwing the punch, but you gain power as you turn your hips and just at the end you make the fist to drive all that power thru.

So in theory if I blend relaxed into a technique could I not take it up a noch at the end with strength and force if necessary? Assuming that it is a technique that is torqing a body part or slamming a person and not a throw.

Just throwing this out there.

Yes you could, but in a sense you would be escalating the situation, by using more force than nesacerry. On another note one could argue that by using more force than nessecary your using up your amount of energy to keep going if there are more opponents.

In the end it really is a question of what you believe and how you want things to be.


/yari

 

[Yari]

I agree, aikido is about control, anything that you do to to compromise that control, makes your aikido less effective.

Not disagreeing, but thinking that you start off taken control of yourself, and then letting go, so you don't have any control, but let your natural self flow with it. thus your techniques will become even more effective ( in "harmony" with the attacker).

/Yari

 

[morph4me]

Not disagreeing, but thinking that you start off taken control of yourself, and then letting go, so you don't have any control, but let your natural self flow with it. thus your techniques will become even more effective ( in "harmony" with the attacker).

/Yari

Absolutely, if you don't control yourself, you can't relax enough to assess the attack, feel Uke's energy, and respond approriately, which leads to the flow and harmony. I see that as contol, can you explain what you mean by letting go? It seems to me that if you let go of the control, you become tense and lose effectiveness, but I think it may be a matter of semantics, not a disagreement.

 

[Yari]

..... "A criminal is looking for his next victim, not his next challenge". ......

I like that..... But you have to remember that not all criminals are "normal" people. Some poeple are instutionalized (sp?), because they don't function in normal social standards: autiske, asebergers (sp?), and they aren't looking for either a victim or challenger. Not refuging your statement, just adding to it.

/Yari

 

[kaizasosei]

i wasn't trying to make any real big statements. i still havent changed my mind about aiki, but i realize that the subject of spirituality is really complicated. i can see if someone would want to separate for teaching purposes. after all, everyone has to make up there own mind as to how they want to get things done.

also, im not always the saint i make myself out to be here. there are no 100% garantees that i will not commit any violence. in a really bad situation, of course i value myself more than the attacker-phyiscally speaking.
but im thinking many attackers will back down if they sense your ability for violence.

j

 

[Yari]

Absolutely, if you don't control yourself, you can't relax enough to assess the attack, feel Uke's energy, and respond approriately, which leads to the flow and harmony. I see that as contol, can you explain what you mean by letting go? It seems to me that if you let go of the control, you become tense and lose effectiveness, but I think it may be a matter of semantics, not a disagreement.

I think so too. When I think control, I think that you have to use energy to keep something in bay, using energy becasue it's(you) are not doing it the right way. But if you are doing it correctly (after practicing for some years), you don't have to control yourself( you have to let go).

It would be like driving with a fence on each side, controling your movement. after doing it a while your can drive without hitting the fence at all. You then remove the fence (the control), and can now move freely with alwas using energy on the fence(watching for it). Of course now there is no fence, but you have complete freedom... its your choice.

/Yari

 

[morph4me]

i wasn't trying to make any real big statements. i still havent changed my mind about aiki, but i realize that the subject of spirituality is really complicated. i can see if someone would want to separate for teaching purposes. after all, everyone has to make up there own mind as to how they want to get things done.

also, im not always the saint i make myself out to be here. there are no 100% garantees that i will not commit any violence. in a really bad situation, of course i value myself more than the attacker-phyiscally speaking.
but im thinking many attackers will back down if they sense your ability for violence.

j

You may be right,and that would be great outcome, or they may sense your ability for violence and figure they need an edge for when the decide to show you that your ability for violence is nothing when compared to their own. Each situation would have to be judged at the time it occurs.

 

[morph4me]

I think so too. When I think control, I think that you have to use energy to keep something in bay, using energy becasue it's(you) are not doing it the right way. But if you are doing it correctly (after practicing for some years), you don't have to control yourself( you have to let go).

It would be like driving with a fence on each side, controling your movement. after doing it a while your can drive without hitting the fence at all. You then remove the fence (the control), and can now move freely with alwas using energy on the fence(watching for it). Of course now there is no fence, but you have complete freedom... its your choice.

/Yari

We were right, it is semantics . In your exampe I see that fact that when you remove the fence it's like staying in a lane , you have the freedom to move all over the road, but the control to stay in the same lane, and because it's your choice, you are still excersing control.

 

[Yari]

You may be right,and that would be great outcome, or they may sense your ability for violence and figure they need an edge for when the decide to show you that your ability for violence is nothing when compared to their own. Each situation would have to be judged at the time it occurs.

Yes, true. good thing to get that in the discussion: sometimes it's a questions of who's i longest, and the need to show off.

Good point you brought in!

/yari

 

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I have always believed and taught my students to have stong spirit in Aikido ( controlled aggression )... So many students now say that there is no punching or kicking in Aikido, that may well be the case today, not so in the 1950/60's when Kenshiro Abbe Sensei first introduced Aikido to Britain. Every class started with one hour of various forms of kicking and punching exercises. I recall in 1957 when Abbe Sensei was teaching he mentioned Ki, I had never heard of Ki, I asked Sensei " what is Ki ? " he replied " I teach Ki in my technique, no need to speak of Ki, maybe in a few years we speak more. " that was the end of that conversation.
Today many Aikido teachers have turned Ki into some mystical force and quasi religion, and sadly they believe much of what they spout themselves in the end.
Henry Ellis

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have always believed and taught my students to have stong spirit in Aikido ( controlled aggression )... So many students now say that there is no punching or kicking in Aikido, that may well be the case today, not so in the 1950/60's when Kenshiro Abbe Sensei first introduced Aikido to Britain. Every class started with one hour of various forms of kicking and punching exercises. I recall in 1957 when Abbe Sensei was teaching he mentioned Ki, I had never heard of Ki, I asked Sensei " what is Ki ? " he replied " I teach Ki in my technique, no need to speak of Ki, maybe in a few years we speak more. " that was the end of that conversation.
Today many Aikido teachers have turned Ki into some mystical force and quasi religion, and sadly they believe much of what they spout themselves in the end.
Henry Ellis

Man reading that was like breath of fresh air, thank you for that :asian:

I know I do not do Aikido and I am a taiji guy but this makes a lot of sense to me based on what I have read about Aikido’s history and origins. Also I have seen and experienced much the same in Taiji.

 

[Yari]

......
Today many Aikido teachers have turned Ki into some mystical force and quasi religion, and sadly they believe much of what they spout themselves in the end.
Henry Ellis

I agree, and thank you for bringing this to the discussion. I think it very important to remember that alot of the thoughts and beliefs of old, are ways of understanding life.

It's like an interpertation of how "true" life is. A way of understanding. Like buying a map that describes life. The map then can show you alot about life; the ways/weres and such. The map is man made, and only a picture of life. And each person has his own indivdual aspect of life/map. When new information /wisdom is found, maps change. LIfe doesn't change, since it's the same, but maps change.

I think to many people think the map is life, thus confusing what is reality and what is thought(man made).

Maps are very usfuld, so it's not to say that we can't use them, because we need them to communicate, and understand. We should only take care and not belieive them to be the ultimate truth.

/yari

 

[kaizasosei]

really great way of explaining everything yarisan. i really like the comparison with the map.

just wanted to regress a bit to the question of aikido and aggression.
i think that aggression in this case can be defined as a type of concentrated enegry. it doesnt mean it is uncontrolled or concentrated in the wrong place. it is in itself a kind of truth.

however, as for the actual need for this type of aggressive energy, i think if extremely controlled is very important for aikido.
anything can be done aggresively. i can pass someone the bread aggressively or ask someone to get out of the way aggressively. even tell someone sorry aggressively.
however, when it comes to defensive situations. it's not just that ones body must force the other person or enemy down. it's about assuming the right positions at the right time. and on the level of mind or spirit or conciousness-whatever you call it- the enemy is working against you.
of course inflexibilty can also work against. like in stretching, one may find it hard to assume certain position because of inflexibilty in our own body. with the right spirit to guide the actions, man can assume the craziest positions like extreme yoga or various martial arts moves that are just the body being manipulated by the mind to achieve a certain position.
but that is not what i mean here.

for example if you are standing in one place and someone comes so close to you that their 'energy'(kinetic-etheral/?) is sortof pushing you aside, then it may even require a form of aggressive energy just to remain standing in one place while still not being as unmoving or blind as a log. because the enemy is actually expecting that one move. of course in aikido one can easily evade with tenkan techniques. but if someone enters your space, you need not necessarily move(unless theyre armed to the teeth-or your boss)-
because often those that push people around are often most vulnerable to getting pushed around(bounced back) when put on the spot.
this type of aggression can if applied correctly stop violence effectively.
but then again, it's aiki. it's betweeen the people involved and cannot be easily catogorized.


j

 

[kaizasosei]

sorry 2.

i know as i wrote above 'enemy' does not sound very harmonious. picked it up from chinese ma. don't think it actually makes a big difference in writing...
partner, attacker, enemy, antagonist, uke, tori.....

 

[Yari]

Just an input: Come to think about agreession, and control. Agression coming from angrey, and in worst case this could turn to rage. So what is this underlying feeling?

The next I thought of was that no many how angry or worse it was a way of showing that you are lossing your control. Not of your anger, but of the oppisite? Letting anger show/be are part of you is letting "peace" lose, and letting 'lost control ¨get the hearsay about the next move.

So maybe we are not talking about controlling anger but trying to channel the underlying feeling (which I havnt found a good description on yet), too something more "positive".

What do you say?

/Yari

 

[kaizasosei]

Re: Aggression in aikido
Just an input: Come to think about agreession, and control. Agression coming from angrey, and in worst case this could turn to rage. So what is this underlying feeling?

The next I thought of was that no many how angry or worse it was a way of showing that you are lossing your control. Not of your anger, but of the oppisite? Letting anger show/be are part of you is letting "peace" lose, and letting 'lost control ¨get the hearsay about the next move.

So maybe we are not talking about controlling anger but trying to channel the underlying feeling (which I havnt found a good description on yet), too something more "positive".

i agree that being angry and enraged will hamper ones concentration in mind and body. also, there is no reason in aikido to be angry. at the most, it would be a biological sideeffect. however, even if you don't mean to be offensive, certain actions will be perceived as aggressive by the other. even if you are simply returning the aggressors aggression.
see, an aikidoka gets tossed a hundred times by the sensei, but in real life would not be happy about getting tossed. so what is the big difference?
perhaps if they had resisted their masters(if not simply get smashed), they would have caused disharmony. or maybe by relaxing self, understanding and loving the enemy, they could have better ability to put aikido into use effectively and constructively.

when refered to aggression earlier, i meant the focus needed to have and unyeilding spirit. not necessarily actual anger or hatred. -because in my experience when i really dislike someones ways, most of the time, we part ways. -im not scared to fight really. but i get naturally get agitated when people act tough and i know that they are not. that is a reason to part ways and has little to do with learning together or the study of aikido-because aikido is not about fighting. and if i piss you off too much, or viceversa, then i am causing a fight. people always will have issues and problems....it's part of being human. however if the problems drag on for a long period of time or if the problems are coming from confused rankholders with pride issues, they are very difficult to harmoniously solve.


j