Aggression in aikido

[theletch1]

I'm pressed for time so I'll get this one started and flesh it out as we go. What role, if any, do ya'll feel aggression has in aikido. I know, I know, it's the art of harmony. I don't ever expect to reach the spiritual level of Ueshiba or Morita so I don't suspect that I'll ever be able to completely achieve mushin in a combat situation. Therefore it is MHO that a certain level of aggression is needed for me to use technique without freezing. The first step is, after all, entering. Moving into an attacker requires a certain level of bravado if not outright aggression.

Agree? Disagree? Discuss! and feel free to bring friends from other arts 'cause the more input the better.

 

[buddah_belly]

Here's a little story from my experience (which is limited at best):

One fun night during randori I had a particularly resistant uke. She grabbed my wrist and cranked it hard (as if she forgot I was nage). It flippin' hurt bad. I teared up it hurt so bad. I stood there a moment, caught my breath, wiped the tears from my eyes, and boom I was ready to go. The other uke looked at me with trepidation and then attacked. From then until the end of randori I was throwing people around like ragdolls. No hesitation. It was crazy. Afterwards, Brett (good uke) said I had a fire in my eyes that he'd never seen before. I was a little freaked out about the whole think because it seemed anger motivated but Sensei and I had a long talk about it and he's view was that it was "a pure expression of ki"...not to get all mystical but his take on it was that by my stopping to breathe and clear my head of everything, my aikido rocked because it just happened.

Was my experience motivated out of anger...possibly. It worked though.

 

[amir]

Aikido (and any other serious M.A. I have heard about) works best if you are cool and keep your control.

Entering should not be an agressive act, it should be done with calm resolve, leaving your raging emotions as a source of energy while you surf on the flow and use it for your energy, just like you use the aggressors power.


Can such calm be reached "for real"? I don't know, have not been there for a long time. It sure is not easy, but neither Aikido nor Aiki were the skill of the average person.


Amir

 

[charyuop]

I don't know what you mean with aggression. Too many times there is a very thin line, IMHO, dividing aggression and intent.
As Uke I try to give 100% intent on my attacks and to do that I have to set my mind that I really want to hit you (actually for Sensei I wanna "kill" you coz a simple hit you wouldn't be enough hee hee he's too good). Grabbing a wrist is not just plain grab and squeeze, it is more like grab with the intention of attacking the center and crush Nage into imself so that you create an opening to punch with the other hand. Is there aggressiveness in doing that? I think there is.
As Nage your main job is connect to Uke and move relating to Uke, with Uke or moving Uke keeping that connection. Even there tho I think there must be a strong intent. If as Nage you get grabbed and you want to throw an Atemi to open a technique, you can't simply put your hand in front of Uke's face and still concentrate on the grab part. Your whole intent is through Uke's center, that Atemi has the intent to enter into Uke and not just say "hey look at my hand". Even in this case I see aggression being part of the intent.
BUT...if I start doing iriminage, for example, and at a certain point I feel resistance from Uke, IMHO in that case the line between intent and aggression becomes thicker.

That is just my point of view, maybe wrong maybe not, but that is the way I feel MY Aikido.

 

[morph4me]

I don't know what you mean with aggression. Too many times there is a very thin line, IMHO, dividing aggression and intent.

I think this is correct, the term aggression may be a little strong, I think intent is a better choice. To me, aggression brings to mind the idea of tension, which is detrimental to flow and makes Aiki more difficult. Intent, on the other hand, brings to mind a calm resolve to accomplish a goal, which seems to me much more in line with what Aikido is supposed to be.

 

[theletch1]

Yep, intent is very much better suited for what I had in mind. Instead of aggression think more along the lines of intent without the slightest hesitation.

 

[Yari]

Agression got me thinking.... but intent is completly different. Intent should be pratice with 100% intent, but also 90 % and 80 % .... down to 1 % intent.

And the intent should be learn to read and understood, so you don't do a 100% technique on a 1% intent.

/yari

 

[charyuop]

And I must admit that a 100% intent is not so easy to do. It was right last week that Sensei told me that during my attack in doing Ikkyo he didn't feel my intent all the way through. He told me that feel the intent up to a certain point, but when Ikkyo starts taking effect on my arm he said I just let go and my intent disappear.
I think intent is something that need practicing just like a technique or Ukemi, since it is not something we have inside us.
There was a Sensei who wrote a message on a message board once. He said he feel the real intent in his students when they are called out on the mat coz he has to demonstrate a technique, because the student doesn't know what it is gonna happen. But when the student knows what is gonna happen, the Sensei said the intent tends to fade away and the student, not intentionally, tends to flow with the technique losing the intent of the attack.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is an interesting topic and I can not really discuss it much form the POV form Aikido since I do not nor have I ever trained Aikido I am a CMA guy (Mainly Taiji) so take this for what it is worth but it would seem to me that aggression should be part of any martial art.

Not necessarily from the POV of the person that is applying the techniques and philosophies of Aikido but for the POV of how to deal with an aggressive attacker. Attacks are aggressive outside of the dojo so some exposure to aggression should be part of the training otherwise how will you handle it once confronted with it? How will you stay calm and non-aggressive and have any percentage of intent if you have never faced it to know how to react?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is an interesting topic and I can not really discuss it much form the POV form Aikido since I do not nor have I ever trained Aikido I am a CMA guy (Mainly Taiji) so take this for what it is worth but it would seem to me that aggression should be part of any martial art.

Not necessarily from the POV of the person that is applying the techniques and philosophies of Aikido but for the POV of how to deal with an aggressive attacker. Attacks are aggressive outside of the dojo so some exposure to aggression should be part of the training otherwise how will you handle it once confronted with it? How will you stay calm and non-aggressive and have any percentage of intent if you have never faced it to know how to react?

Anger Management!

I think Xue has a really good point to look at. When practicing it is obviously advantages at times to work with someone who has some anger, aggression going. That way in the real world you won't be surprised by it. Oh and yes this type of training can be dangerous because the lines can blur quickly. (it is not always safe) However it can be really, really rewarding.

Intent is the key!

As to intent. Well intent should be a part of all training and your intentions will definately reflect in how you train. I have serious intentions when training or teaching sometimes that manifests as scary to my fellow practitioner's, students. This in turn helps them to grow. Just some food for thought!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Anger Management!

I think Xue has a really good point to look at. When practicing it is obviously advantages at times to work with someone who has some anger, aggression going. That way in the real world you won't be surprised by it. Oh and yes this type of training can be dangerous because the lines can blur quickly. (it is not always safe) However it can be really, really rewarding.

Intent is the key!

As to intent. Well intent should be a part of all training and your intentions will definately reflect in how you train. I have serious intentions when training or teaching sometimes that manifests as scary to my fellow practitioner's, students. This in turn helps them to grow. Just some food for thought!

Not necessarily training with angry people but someone that is willing to be aggressive for the purposes of training, and yes intent is very important.

I have worked with people in Taiji doing push hands, which can be very non-aggressive, by attacking. It is part of taiji actually and part of push hands training, if nothing is happening and you see no opening or advantage attack and see how they react. Step outside of the drill, if you will, and surprise them. If you are in a real world application and find yourself having to redirect or absorb an attack if you have never been attacked you are lost. And if you have never attacked you are again lost because after redirect or absorb there is attack. Throw them off balance and attack.

You don't necessarily need to be angry just aggressive. Usually the person tenses up and has no idea what to do, unless of course I am training with my Sifu who stays relaxed and usually uses my attacker to his advantage and throws me around like a rag doll.

My point is that if you stay within the drill and stay within the parameters of setup for training of necessary speed and power you never are surprised by your opponent and when dealing with aggression outside of whatever school you train in you are going to hesitate so you really need to know how to deal with surprise.

If the attacker or opponent comes at you with a calm mind and non-aggressive approach, that is great for them but not necessarily great for you in the face of a real live attacker who is, at least in part, depending on surprise and aggression to defeat you. If you can stay calm in the face of that then you are doing much better than if you tense up, hesitate or stop to think.

But I do fully agree that if you are not careful the lines can blur rather quickly, someone gets angry and then things change and they can forget this is training not fighting.

 

[morph4me]

I think there might be some confusion in regards to the OP, Jeff you can clear this up. I read the OP as a question about aggression in the defender not the attacker. I just basically assumed ( I know, I shouldn't assume :duh that in order to attack, aggression was a given.

I like aggresive attackers, it give me more to work with :EG:, but I prefer to defend with intent, and stay as calm and relaxed as possible.

 

[theletch1]

Not really confusion so much as a slight divergence of the topic. The OP was, indeed, on the part of the defender. BUT...the point that Xue and Brian were making about defending against an aggressive attacker fits well into what I had in mind. Defending with intent is one thing in the dojo when you know that your training partner isn't there to hurt you. Defending with intent on the street when someone truly is coming at you to hurt you is another all together. I really feel that attempting to do irimi (entering, blending) with the same "intensity of intent" that you use in the dojo is a little on the dangerous side unless you've trained as Brian was discussing...with someone who is very aggressive. It's a very grey idea that I've had bouncing in my head. It's sorta how much heart do you put into the defense or are you entering with the intent to do whatever needs to be done without hesitation or thought to how much damage you could do to your attacker. Am I making sense here or is it another case of too many diesel fumes again this week?:boing2:

Brian and Xue, I started another thread in this sub dealing with sparring in aikido (the karate/tkd type) and tried it out this weekend with the one partner I trust the most...my wife. The aggression that you see in that situation is so much more than what I've ever seen in traditional randori that it got me thinking about the "aggression" of the defender in this situation. You two have really helped me flesh out what I had in mind here. Thanks.

 

[morph4me]

I actually think that training with intent in the dojo is what you should be doing anyway, the attacker supplies the energy and determines the level of defense. The intent of the defend should always be the same, the level of aggression of the attacker changes.

As charyuop said

He said he feel the real intent in his students when they are called out on the mat coz he has to demonstrate a technique, because the student doesn't know what it is gonna happen. But when the student knows what is gonna happen, the Sensei said the intent tends to fade away and the student, not intentionally, tends to flow with the technique losing the intent of the attack.

That's because the attacker knew what was going to happen and didn't want it to happen too hard :EG:

 

[theletch1]

I actually think that training with intent in the dojo is what you should be doing anyway, the attacker supplies the energy and determines the level of defense. The intent of the defend should always be the same, the level of aggression of the attacker changes.

That's because the attacker knew what was going to happen and didn't want it to happen too hard :EG:

Been there, done that. I was McCraw Sensei's uke wed. nite, zigged when I should have zagged. Thursday the lady at the front desk of the gym asked me if I'd been in an accident! My nose is black and blue. What a blast. I need a good punch in the face now and then to remind me that I can take a punch in the face.

I like the reminder of matching uke's intent/level of aggression. If we translate that to the mental side of the altercation as well as the physical side then I'm closer to getting to the meat of what I'm talking about.

 

[jks9199]

Been there, done that. I was McCraw Sensei's uke wed. nite, zigged when I should have zagged. Thursday the lady at the front desk of the gym asked me if I'd been in an accident! My nose is black and blue. What a blast. I need a good punch in the face now and then to remind me that I can take a punch in the face.

I like the reminder of matching uke's intent/level of aggression. If we translate that to the mental side of the altercation as well as the physical side then I'm closer to getting to the meat of what I'm talking about.

Both sides of this issue are important.

When you're practicing as a defender -- and if you're actually defending yourself -- you need to be in control of your emotions. That way, you can use any anger you feel appropriately to focus and direct your responses. The Star Wars "dark side of the force" view that any anger is bad is too simplistic; you can channel anger into an effective response, so long as you remain in control and aren't simply along for the ride.

When you're practicing as an attacker, you need to put some real intent, aggression or "oomph" to use a technical term into the attack. Otherwise, your partner isn't going to have a real experience, and won't build good reactions. Not only do the ranges have to be reasonable -- but their has to be that undercurrent, or it won't work well. That's the sort of thing that separates some of the adrenal stress training from a lot of the padded suit stuff... It's not easy to learn to turn on and off, but once you do, your training will really leap ahead.

 

[buddah_belly]

The Star Wars "dark side of the force" view that any anger is bad is too simplistic; you can channel anger into an effective response, so long as you remain in control and aren't simply along for the ride.

The night my little experience happened, Sensei jokingly said, "Wow you really tapped in to the dark side of the force tonight"...he was trying to be funny but it upset me more because I really struggled with the fear that what I had done had been out of anger when in fact it had been properly channeled into an "effective response".

 

[kaizasosei]

aggression could be defined as a purely mental stance or one could deem certain behavior or physical actions to be aggressive.
aggression can be a form of energy like being happy, worrying or being sad or scared.
usually, when people think of aggression, we think of the negative aspect. indeed, an aggressively unforgiving attitude is not a sign of the highest realms of aiki, however, live blades have been known to kill people. likewise, aikido ist can take the entire balance of an opponent.
aggression could also be seen as part of the energy of the human being that needs to be chanelled in a certain way.

too much aggression will cause the movements to be too commited and extreme losing sight of the opponents energy. at that point, one may miss ones mark and end up pushing thin air.
all people have aiki and different people have different understandings irrespective of having any experience with the formal art of aikido.

from a human point of view, any ma actions that are not justified are not perfect. it is sometimes not easy justifying just WHY one person has to be throwing another around in the first place, or why? someone has to destroy another persons body with ma moves...

one must remember always, that aikido and combat is not the same thing. combat is simple strike that is effective. aikido is the art of moving in all things. actually, raw physical combat is not a high level of aikido in my opinion.

j

 

[theletch1]

one must remember always, that aikido and combat is not the same thing. combat is simple strike that is effective. aikido is the art of moving in all things. actually, raw physical combat is not a high level of aikido in my opinion.

j

I agree to a great deal with this statement. Raw, physical combat is, indeed, a lower form of aikido as the precepts of aikido make it an art primarily for spiritual development. If you find yourself in an altercation (physical) then all of your aikido has already failed you. I say this when teaching kids all the time. The ugly truth of the matter is that we live in a dangerous world and may well find ourselves in a position to use the raw and physical side of aikido to defend ourselves. Combat, however, is much more than a simple strike that is effective. Were it truly that simple there wouldn't be a myriad of different arts devoted to combat. While it is a great thing to eschew combat for the sake of spirituality it is a bit naive to believe that combat is anything less than life or death and should be given the same attention as the development of the spirit. My concern is that the development of the spirit will subdue the human trait of aggression to the point that when concentrated intent is needed in a SD situation it just isn't there. Yes, I know that my ultimate goal should be spiritual enlightenment but I am honest enough with myself to know that that just isn't going to happen for many many years if ever. In the mean time I must concentrate on perfecting the physical and in that perfection hope to find a key to the spiritual.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Please excuse the intusion form the cma guy again :asian:

Spirituality in the martial arts, any martial art, is a tough topic for me. My stand is always that it is intrinsic, not overt and if you want spirituality go to church not a martial arts school. But with that said I can also see from my meager exposure to aikido and my reading of some of Ueshiba that spirituality is a big thing in aikido. But again I do not feel it is overt or in any way separate form the honest training of aikido and that honest training is teaching you to fight. But I have also said one of the things about TMA that make it different for Sports MA is that you train to fight and hope to never have to use it also a bit of a spiritual way of thinking in my opinion

But I sometime think that many are focusing so much (to much) on the path of spirituality that they forget to enjoy life, they forget they are training a martial art and I do not think that is what Ueshiba was talking about in anything he wrote. Again I could be wrong, I am a CMA guy not an aikido practitioner. And since I feel spirituality is intrinsic to many martial arts then good hard, honest and correct training of that martial art is also part of that spiritual journey.

My taiji sifu has been training taiji and only taiji for over 50 years he has never once discussed spirituality with me, but then I have never asked nor do I intend to. He has also not discussed it with anyone else in class even when they did ask. He tells them to focus on training, breathing the forms and that is as far as he has ever taken it. He has discussed proper application and proper push hands and let me tell you when you get just one of those applications right (the taji way) it is a bit of an epiphany, or at least it is to me. I would think that in aikido it would be much the same.

Also my sifu has said he has never in his life ever felt threatened and he was teaching Taiji, a Chinese martial art, in Thailand in the fifties. This means he was likely challenged more than once and he came to the US in the early 60s too, He has always trusted in his skill and training and to me that frees you up for a lot of other stuff including the pursuit of spirituality if that is what you want. For that matter feeling comfortable and safe in your own skin in and of itself would seem to me be a very large part of spirituality.

So I guess this is a long way to say that if you truly train your art, not just go through the motions, you are also working on spirituality as well.

I see this in taiji all the time this focus on spirituality and enlightenment and a complete aversion to all things martial art and or a complete removal from things martial art and then in some cases a complete disgust with taiji because they have trained it for a few weeks, months, years and they are still not enlightened. And yet they are not training the entire art they are actually training a very small part of it and from what I have seen, read and heard of aikido I think if you are not real careful you can go the same route as taiji is sadly going and loose the martial aspect all together and I for one would be very sad if that were to happen. And here is the kicker, lose the martial aspect (the agression) and you loose the art and the spirituallity that comes with it.

Just as a side note: My taijiquan sifu pretty much does not care about any other martial art outside of taiji save one, Aikido. He is fascinated with Morihei Ueshiba but beyond that he does not care about any other martial art other than taiji.