Advantage Martial Arts Has Over Guns

[gyoja]

Gun flashing is Brandishing, which is a crime. Don’t do it, ever.

He may have been referring to open carry?

 

[gyoja]

I agree with you here. Your post made wonder about the implications of someone who can’t fight carrying a gun that they may not be ready or willing to use. Do you or others feel this may increase their personal risk rather than decrease it? How about the risk to those around them? If someone robs them, they may well take and or use that firearm against that victim or others. Maybe this is for a different thread.

This is why I teach gun owners in my shooting course that it is their responsibility to be proficient with their weapon, including regular range time.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

That's kind of murky in some states. Some allow for "defensive display," but the laws about that in the states that do allow it tend to be very confusing. But other states don't allow it all. Which is unfortunate. I'd like the option of having someone back off after seeing the gun so that everyone goes home unharmed.

Brandishing is something that criminals and plainclothes guys (i.e government sanctioned criminals) practice with effect. I recall a story about a CIA team in an African country during the 2000s doing a recon mission. They realized their car was being tailed. They rolled down the windows a bit and poked the rifles out. The tail got the message, and turned.

 

[gyoja]

Brandishing is something that criminals and plainclothes guys (i.e government sanctioned criminals) practice with effect. I recall a story about a CIA team in an African country during the 2000s doing a recon mission. They realized their car was being tailed. They rolled down the windows a bit and poked the rifles out. The tail got the message, and turned.

It is surprisingly effective in developing countries.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It is surprisingly effective in developing countries.

I guess it’s just a different mindset. The armed element in those countries seem more into, “test me, and I’ll kill you without hesitation.” The “use of force continuum“ is perhaps an exclusively western concept.

 

[gyoja]

I guess it’s just a different mindset. The armed element in those countries seem more into, “test me, and I’ll kill you without hesitation.” The “use of force continuum“ is perhaps an exclusively western concept.

My first combat mission was in Africa. Some places there are straight out of a post apocalypse movie!

 

[GreenieMeanie]

My first combat mission was in Africa. Some places there are straight out of a post apocalypse movie!

I‘ve seen and heard plenty. Any country where a plainclothes operative can get away with flashing a carbine, is not a country I particularly want to visit. I wonder if they still sell RPGs at the markets in Somalia, for $500…adjusted for inflation of course.

 

[gyoja]

I‘ve seen and heard plenty. Any country where a plainclothes operative can get away with flashing a carbine, is not a country I particularly want to visit. I wonder if they still sell RPGs at the markets in Somalia, for $500…adjusted for inflation of course.

They had plenty for sale my last time through!

 

[Fungus]

Gun flashing is Brandishing, which is a crime. Don’t do it, ever.

Where I am carrying even concealed is illegal, unless you are a police office or a hunter in the woods with a license to hunt.
Here it is also illegal to even carry a knife on your pocket, even pepper spray is illegal. Not only to use, but to carry!

I wasn't commenting from legal aspects but from tactical aspects. I assumed all this talk was for people in USA, where I understand that in some states, things are to say the least, very liberal. I've been to usa a few times and was told that in some states almost everyone has a gun in their car for example. Not sure if it is true but sounds nuts to me

 

[gyoja]

Where I am carrying even concealed is illegal, unless you are a police office or a hunter in the woods with a license to hunt.
Here it is also illegal to even carry a knife on your pocket, even pepper spray is illegal. Not only to use, but to carry!

I wasn't commenting from legal aspects but from tactical aspects. I assumed all this talk was for people in USA, where I understand that in some states, things are to say the least, very liberal. I've been to usa a few times and was told that in some states almost everyone has a gun in their car for example. Not sure if it is true but sounds nuts to me

Then I guess that we are “nuts” around here!

 

[GreenieMeanie]

They had plenty for sale my last time through!

I hope you hit the clearance sale. Souvenirs, for the ride home….inert of course (for the friendly neighborhood ATF agent happening upon this thread).

 

[gyoja]

I hope you hit the clearance sale. Souvenirs, for the ride home….inert of course (for the friendly neighborhood ATF agent happening upon this thread).

Souvenirs! Of course!

 

[HighKick]

We have discussed this a few times. Not a ton of information on accuracy rates for cops, but what studies that do exist suggest is in the area of 15 to 20%.

I don't see how that could be remotely accurate. LEO's must score at a certain level, and it is a constituent part of passing the academy for graduation (and continuing as employee). And they have to recertify at XX level at least every year, sometimes monthly, department dependent.
For TN officers on the modified TR22 course, 87% is a minimum score.

'Studies' are like polls, the output can say whatever the originator(s) want them to. Just look at the wildly different political polls about the same person.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I don't see how that could be remotely accurate. LEO's must score at a certain level, and it is a constituent part of passing the academy for graduation (and continuing as employee). And they have to recertify at XX level at least every year, sometimes monthly, department dependent.
For TN officers on the modified TR22 course, 87% is a minimum score.

'Studies' are like polls, the output can say whatever the originator(s) want them to. Just look at the wildly different political polls about the same person.

Don’t police unions generally contest physical quals, fitness requirement, etc., with success?

 

[marvin8]

Use of deadly force varies wildly state to state, not to mention other countries. I would recommend taking a concealed carry course in your area. They will inform you about your local laws.

Such a course would only focus on what the legal consequences of shooting somebody would be, it wouldn't really get into the legal consequences if you were to use just your hands, ect.

No. In the U.S., a CCW course gets into the up to 5 elements needed to claim self-defense whether using a weapon or hands. If any ONE element of the up to 5 elements is disproven, you lose the right to self-defense (consequence) whether using a weapon or hands. Proportionality is one of those elements that covers disparity of force.

"Nov 9, 2023

CCW Safe Co-Founder and COO Stan Campbell hosts CCW Safe National Trial Counsel Don West and Attorney Andrew Branca from Law of Self-Defense for an hour long discussion on the legal aspects of self-defense. Topics include stand your ground vs duty retreat states and what that really means, the importance of choosing the right self-defense attorney and why most people simply are not equipped to do so, why warnings shots are not a good idea and understanding the importance of your social media in a self defense trial."

 

[jks9199]

I agree with you here. Your post made wonder about the implications of someone who can’t fight carrying a gun that they may not be ready or willing to use. Do you or others feel this may increase their personal risk rather than decrease it? How about the risk to those around them? If someone robs them, they may well take and or use that firearm against that victim or others. Maybe this is for a different thread.

Talisman thinking.
It's a form of magical thinking. I have my pepperspray/gun/black belt -- nothing can harm me. Yeah.... powerful thinking, but life doesn't work that way.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't see how that could be remotely accurate. LEO's must score at a certain level, and it is a constituent part of passing the academy for graduation (and continuing as employee). And they have to recertify at XX level at least every year, sometimes monthly, department dependent.
For TN officers on the modified TR22 course, 87% is a minimum score.

'Studies' are like polls, the output can say whatever the originator(s) want them to. Just look at the wildly different political polls about the same person.

This might be for gunfights. As previously mentioned not all cops are regular shooters.

 

[Steve]

I don't see how that could be remotely accurate. LEO's must score at a certain level, and it is a constituent part of passing the academy for graduation (and continuing as employee). And they have to recertify at XX level at least every year, sometimes monthly, department dependent.
For TN officers on the modified TR22 course, 87% is a minimum score.

'Studies' are like polls, the output can say whatever the originator(s) want them to. Just look at the wildly different political polls about the same person.

I’ll share one or two of them when I’m at a computer. You can dismiss them after you’ve read them. . It’s accurate because there is a serious difference between training and application. They may be able to hit a target, but when involved in a real situation, accuracy may be up to around 30% if they aren’t being shot at, and goes down from there.

The real difficulty is police standards and training are wildly divergent, and information is often not readily available, or available at all. But the studies are as objective and accurate as possible.

 

[Steve]

Talisman thinking.
It's a form of magical thinking. I have my pepperspray/gun/black belt -- nothing can harm me. Yeah.... powerful thinking, but life doesn't work that way.

My personal opinion is that most cops don’t need to carry firearms everywhere they go. And those that do should be exceedingly well trained.

 

[Mallic]

Hot take, but if you ask me, you should have at least a basic understanding of hand to hand combat before being allowed anywhere near a firearm. You can't even throw a proper punch and you expect me to trust you with a handgun?