Advantage Martial Arts Has Over Guns

[PhotonGuy]

Shot placement is vastly more important than caliber.

That I agree with.

I wouldn’t say that most handgun rounds are ballistically deficient, just are so when compared to high velocity rifle rounds.

That's what Im talking about, when compared to rifle rounds, handgun rounds are ballistically deficient.

There was a case of a woman taking a handgun class who accidentally shot herself in the foot. She was flown into a hospital and her foot was patched up and she was back the next day and finished the class. Had it been a rifle round it probably would've been no more foot and she would be fitted with a prosthetic.

The issue is that during the engagement your body dumps adrenaline, your field of vision narrows and your heart pounds in your ears. People that are inexperienced will focus on everything except their front sight post.

That is true, that's why training is crucial.

 

[jks9199]

So you have lots of experience with various methods of self defense, you know how to defend yourself using all sorts of various means, but do you have much experience in the courtroom? Do you know how to avoid being tried by 12 just because you refused to be carried by 6? Do you know how to win in court?

I have just a little bit of experience in court... More time in court than most attorneys, in fact. (Most attorneys are not trial lawyers, so that's kind of a cop out...) I've testified in misdemeanor and felony trials, in state and federal court. And in both criminal and civil trials. My duties include assessing an officer's use of force/response to resistance, as well as reviewing and advising on our use of force/response to resistance policies.

Do you know how stupid and trite the "I'd rather be tried by 12" line is? And how much is wrong with that whole mindset? You are out of your depth.

You're talking about Virginia law and Im not all that familiar with how it is in Virginia but it can be a bit more complicated than that. From my own research I've learned that some jurisdictions have the duty to retreat where if you're attacked in a public place your first course of action should be to run, if you can. In other jurisdictions you can stand your ground where you can use force to stop your attacker instead of running. In jurisdictions where you can stand your ground you can use force to incapacitate your attacker, even if running is an option.

You're trying to talk about preclusion, which applies regardless of duty to retreat laws -- and has nothing to do with your original post that said, in sum, the courts are going to look more kindly upon unarmed self defense than a pistol. And I've said that the means are immaterial -- the reasonableness and proportionality of the use of force in question is what will matter.

The way I see it i

There's your problem -- right there. How you see it doesn't matter, and a fair is a place with rides and cotton candy.

So what you're saying is that, if you choke somebody to death the courts will see it in the same light as if you shot them to death, and you will face the same charges, convictions, and sentences.

Exactly. To wit, homicide. Whether it is murder or manslaughter depends on many factors -- and yes, it could most certainly be tried as murder in some jurisdictions if you played a significant role in instigating the violent encounter.

And just how "likely" does a type of force have to be in order for it to be considered "lethal force?" As I stated above, most handgun shots will just injure a person without killing them, depending on where you hit them, so you can say handgun shots have a less than 50% chance of killing. On the other hand just about anything can kill. People have died from being hit with blackjacks and from being tazed and from being pepper sprayed. All those methods aren't meant to kill but in some instances they can and do. That being as it is, are they considered "lethal force?"

The question amounts to what a "reasonable person" would consider to be likely to cause significant bodily harm or death. Blackjacks are most certainly capable of this -- and would very likely lead to assault with a deadly weapon charges, especially if you hit someone in the head.. The Taser is a less lethal weapon; it is not likely to cause serious bodily harm or death, and Axon will say that nobody has died from the Taser, but rather from medical complications due to drugs, or from falls, or other factors. They actually have quite a bit of research, and it's largely publically available on their website. (www-dot-axon-dot-com) Pepper spray is also considered less lethal, as most people will simply suffer from it. A few are allergic, or otherwise experience complications. Again -- you are out of your depth.

So if a big muscular guy who doesn't appear to have any preexisting condition is coming at you and you push him and by a cruel twist of fate he falls and hits his head on a curb and dies what you're saying is that you could be charged with homicide.

Absolutely. See here. Or here. Or here. I can't find the one I was looking for; I think it actually got discussed here on MT where an off duty cop got in a bar fight, punched someone who hit their head and died -- and was charged with murder.

Do you know any on this forum? You claim to have lots of experience yourself in self defense but you've never claimed to be a lawyer.

I've never claimed to be an attorney. I'm not sure if we have any on this site; we don't inquire about professions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have just a little bit of experience in court... More time in court than most attorneys, in fact. (Most attorneys are not trial lawyers, so that's kind of a cop out...) I've testified in misdemeanor and felony trials, in state and federal court. And in both criminal and civil trials. My duties include assessing an officer's use of force/response to resistance, as well as reviewing and advising on our use of force/response to resistance policies.

Do you know how stupid and trite the "I'd rather be tried by 12" line is? And how much is wrong with that whole mindset? You are out of your depth.

You're trying to talk about preclusion, which applies regardless of duty to retreat laws -- and has nothing to do with your original post that said, in sum, the courts are going to look more kindly upon unarmed self defense than a pistol. And I've said that the means are immaterial -- the reasonableness and proportionality of the use of force in question is what will matter.

There's your problem -- right there. How you see it doesn't matter, and a fair is a place with rides and cotton candy.

Exactly. To wit, homicide. Whether it is murder or manslaughter depends on many factors -- and yes, it could most certainly be tried as murder in some jurisdictions if you played a significant role in instigating the violent encounter.

The question amounts to what a "reasonable person" would consider to be likely to cause significant bodily harm or death. Blackjacks are most certainly capable of this -- and would very likely lead to assault with a deadly weapon charges, especially if you hit someone in the head.. The Taser is a less lethal weapon; it is not likely to cause serious bodily harm or death, and Axon will say that nobody has died from the Taser, but rather from medical complications due to drugs, or from falls, or other factors. They actually have quite a bit of research, and it's largely publically available on their website. (www-dot-axon-dot-com) Pepper spray is also considered less lethal, as most people will simply suffer from it. A few are allergic, or otherwise experience complications. Again -- you are out of your depth.

Absolutely. See here. Or here. Or here. I can't find the one I was looking for; I think it actually got discussed here on MT where an off duty cop got in a bar fight, punched someone who hit their head and died -- and was charged with murder.

I've never claimed to be an attorney. I'm not sure if we have any on this site; we don't inquire about professions.

Well played Sir!

 

[gyoja]

Had it been a rifle round it probably would've been no more foot and she would be fitted with a prosthetic.

That may be a little bit of a stretch.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My buddy took an AK round to his right shin. He has a slightly crooked leg but walks fine after early mornings. My other buddy took 7 rounds from an AK at about 6 feet away, up his right arm, across the chest ( in the plate ) and in his left shoulder. He was lucky, he got back to work and ended up with 2 more Purple Hearts after getting shot in the hand and then blown up and almost lost a leg. He walks with a cane and sometimes 2 canes, which is what I tell him is his gangster name “2 Canes”.

 

[gyoja]

My buddy took an AK round to his right shin. He has a slightly crooked leg but walks fine after early mornings. My other buddy took 7 rounds from an AK at about 6 feet away, up his right arm, across the chest ( in the plate ) and in his left shoulder. He was lucky, he got back to work and ended up with 2 more Purple Hearts after getting shot in the hand and then blown up and almost lost a leg. He walks with a cane and sometimes 2 canes, which is what I tell him is his gangster name “2 Canes”.

Exactly. I took a round to the head and a three round burst to the plate at close range. Many people take three to four rounds before they go down. Rifle rounds are definitely not magic. Shot placement and ammo type is key. If the other two guys that shot me had been using AP rounds, it may have been them walking out that day.

 

[Gyakuto]

Exactly. I took a round to the head and a three round burst to the plate at close range. Many people take three to four rounds before they go down. Rifle rounds are definitely not magic. Shot placement and ammo type is key. If the other two guys that shot me had been using AP rounds, it may have been them walking out that day.

QI, the noted and carefully researched BBC programme, suggested that people tended not to fall over after being shot until the advent of motion pictures showing this behaviour.

 

[gyoja]

QI, the noted and carefully researched BBC programme, suggested that people tended not to fall over after being shot until the advent of motion pictures showing this behaviour.

I definitely fell over!

 

[Gyakuto]

I definitely fell over!

Had you previously watched action films such as Predator/Commando/Terminator/The Running Man/Red Heat/Total Recall/Jingle All the Way? Then that’s why you fell over on being riddled with bullets

 

[gyoja]

Had you previously watched action films such as Predator/Commando/Terminator/The Running Man/Red Heat/Total Recall/Jingle All the Way? Then that’s why you fell over on being riddle with bullets

You got me

 

[jks9199]

QI, the noted and carefully researched BBC programme, suggested that people tended not to fall over after being shot until the advent of motion pictures showing this behaviour.

Unfortunately, lots of documented cases of cops going down with wounds that a bad guy pushes through because the cop has bought into the "deadly bullet" story. I don't have students -- professional or not -- practice dying. It'll come naturally. I train them to assume that they will keep going...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Unfortunately, lots of documented cases of cops going down with wounds that a bad guy pushes through because the cop has bought into the "deadly bullet" story. I don't have students -- professional or not -- practice dying. It'll come naturally. I train them to assume that they will keep going...

How about cops going down after being hit by an acorn?

 

[gyoja]

How about cops going down after being hit by an acorn?

What??????

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What??????

Google "Acorn Cop".

It's amusing because no one got hurt. It could have been tragic if the suspect sitting in the patrol car had been hit by the two cops unloading their firearms into the vehicle because they mistook a falling acorn for a gun shot.

 

[gyoja]

Google "Acorn Cop".

It's amusing because no one got hurt. It could have been tragic if the suspect sitting in the patrol car had been hit by the two cops unloading their firearms into the vehicle because they mistook a falling acorn for a gun shot.

And I used to live there!

 

[Gyakuto]

Unfortunately, lots of documented cases of cops going down with wounds that a bad guy pushes through because the cop has bought into the "deadly bullet" story. I don't have students -- professional or not -- practice dying. It'll come naturally. I train them to assume that they will keep going...

I’ll let you argue that with the QI ‘Elves’ as their researcher/fact checkers are called!

 

[Gyakuto]

I used to teach ‘Forensic Anatomy’ (BMS 324) in my last job. In my research on the effects of gunshot, I found a video/paper on bullet calibre and the ability to drop a subject (pigs) instantly due to massive injury. There was a particular calibration of bullet above which one was pretty much guaranteed to cause a human sized animal to drop to the ground after being struck by it. How the pigs obtained access to action films, I don’t know.

Unfortunately I’ve never been able to find that citation since nor am I certain my memory of it is correct It might be rubbish

 

[jks9199]

Google "Acorn Cop".

It's amusing because no one got hurt. It could have been tragic if the suspect sitting in the patrol car had been hit by the two cops unloading their firearms into the vehicle because they mistook a falling acorn for a gun shot.

There's a lot that shouldn't have happened there, and the former deputy who thought he was shot was CLEARLY way over-escalated. I get being startled; they were dealing with a reportedly armed subject, and an acorn landing on a vehicle roof can be louder than crap... but I have no clue why he thought he'd been hit....

 

[jks9199]

I used to teach ‘Forensic Anatomy’ (BMS 324) in my last job. In my research on the effects of gunshot, I found a video/paper on bullet calibre and the ability to drop a subject (pigs) instantly due to massive injury. There was a particular calibration of bullet above which one was pretty much guaranteed to cause a human sized animal to drop to the ground after being struck by it. How the pigs obtained access to action films, I don’t know.

Unfortunately I’ve never been able to find that citation since nor am I certain my memory of it is correct It might be rubbish

FBI and DOJ have done a lot of research on ballistic impact effects. Probably find it there.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Guns, kicks, punches and crazy posts on martial talk. Shot with the ray from a Photon-gun I was stunned into responding to another strange thread for a second time today

Idaho woman, 85, fatally shot home intruder in 'heroic' act of self-defense

A county prosecutor said the woman acted in self-defense and ruled it was a case of justifiable homicide in a case review.

www.nbcnews.com