Add Killing Into Bio?

[Jonathan]

How does that saying go? Those that do don't talk, and those who talk don't do. .

Way of the Tao, I think.

 

[Cthulhu]

What the hell purpose does something like that serve?

None.

Cthulhu

 

[Yari]

I don't agree on putting up killings or any other kind og maining a person.

edit: Maby it should be a count on how many people you've saved????


/Yari

 

[Shaderon]

Then of course there's the 2% of individuals who are classed as socio-paths, who lack the normal human reservations towards killing.
Even then its apparently more something you just do, not a bid deal.
So braggers most likely are making it up, or try to be proud of it so they don't have to be guilty.

I agree that people who brag about killing someone are probably making it up, or deeply disturbed. For someone who has seen real death, it's nothing to brag about and can hurt you psychologically for a long time, I can't imagine what it would be like if that death was your fault!

 

[jdinca]

For whatever reason it's done, I find it sad and pathetic. I sincerely hope that nobody who has done this is proud of the fact, regardless of the reasons, or justification behind the act.

 

[Jonathan]

For whatever reason it's done, I find it sad and pathetic. I sincerely hope that nobody who has done this is proud of the fact, regardless of the reasons, or justification behind the act.

Amen. As a fellow Marine once said (and yeah, this is to take the 'coolness edge' away from killing that a lot of sadly ill-informed individuals ascribe to it) to me: "God, I pray I never am in a position to have to pull this trigger. If I must kill, let there be no other choice; let it be only to protect. Let it be merciful."

This was before we touched down in Kuwait. He never did have to fire.

If a US Marine has that kind of reservation about taking anothers' life, I fail to see why anybody thinks it's cool, or something about which to brag.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't want to want to start a flame war or anything, but I have to wonder...when informed from some of the samurai stories, none of those guys shied away from bragging about their kills. Our society has really changed and it really makes me wonder if our current martial skills reflect this.

Back in the day, if you trained with a person like Musashi, who claimed over 60 kills in duels, you know that you were learning the "real deal."

With that being said, has the relative peacefulness of our days ruined the martial arts?

 

[Cruentus]

I don't want to want to start a flame war or anything, but I have to wonder...when informed from some of the samurai stories, none of those guys shied away from bragging about their kills. Our society has really changed and it really makes me wonder if our current martial skills reflect this.

Back in the day, if you trained with a person like Musashi, who claimed over 60 kills in duels, you know that you were learning the "real deal."

With that being said, has the relative peacefulness of our days ruined the martial arts?

From the book Hagakure:

There was a man who said, "Such and such a person has a violent disposition, but this is what I said right to his face…" This was an unbecoming thing to say, and it was said simply because he wanted to be known as a rough fellow. It was rather low, and it can be seen that he was still rather immature. It is because a samurai has correct manners that he is admired. Speaking of other people in this way is no different from an exchange between low class spearmen. It is vulgar.

- Yamamoto Tsunetomo; 1716.

In all cultures that value life for as long as we have been recording history, using ones track record in regards to killing to boost ones credentials or to boost ones reputation has always been seen as disrespectful and dishonorable.

It is one thing to tell of an encounter for the purpose of learning or teaching, or benefiting others in some way. It is quite another to use such facts as a marketing piece, or to boost ones ego or public perception.

Many warrior classes from cultures who have been known as having the best fighters of the time period have held this view that using ones track record to bolster ones reputation is dishonorable. So, because of this I don't think "martial arts skills" have been effected by this view. If "martial arts skills" have degraded over time (not sure that they have), then I don't think it would be because of the view of having personal honor and respect for life.

 

[Makalakumu]

Many warrior classes from cultures who have been known as having the best fighters of the time period have held this view that using ones track record to bolster ones reputation is dishonorable.

This view is certainly not as ubiquitous as you think. See this quote from A Book of Five Rings...

I have been many years training in the Way of strategy, called Ni Ten Ichi Ryu, and now I think I will explain it in writing for the first time. It is now during the first ten days of the tenth month in the twentieth year of Kanei (1645). I have climbed mountain Iwato of Higo in Kyushu to pay homage to heaven, pray to Kwannon, and kneel before Buddha. I am a warrior of Harima province, Shinmen Musashi No Kami Fujiwara No Geshin, age sixty years.

From youth my heart has been inclined toward the Way of strategy. My first duel was when I was thirteen, I struck down a strategist of the Shinto school, one Arima Kihei. When I was sixteen I struck down an able strategist, Tadashima Akiyama. When I was twenty-one I went up to the capital and met all manner of strategists, never once failing to win in many contests.
After that I went from province to province duelling with strategists of various schools, and not once failed to win even though I had as many as sixty encounters. This was between the ages of thirteen and twenty-eight or twenty-nine.

Musashi isn't neccessarily bragging about killing, but he is using the fact that he has done it and been successful with his style in order to make a point. And that point regards it's effectiveness. With that being said, I think that one could find many more examples of liturature from people who lived in much more violent times that would do the same.

So, because of this I don't think "martial arts skills" have been effected by this view. If "martial arts skills" have degraded over time (not sure that they have), then I don't think it would be because of the view of having personal honor and respect for life.

I'm not too familiar with the different types of arts military people might train in order to boost their hand to hand effectiveness, but I'm pretty sure they would pick arts that have a proven track record. Perhaps they would even want to know if the art is deadly or not. If one is one is marketing toward people like this, wouldn't it make sense to communicate the fact that you have used your training to actually kill?

Take a look at what Pikiti Tersia's history says...

http://www.pt-go.com/history_intro.asp

Why do they include information on killing others on their site? Do they have no personal honor or respect for life?

 

[jdinca]

I don't want to want to start a flame war or anything, but I have to wonder...when informed from some of the samurai stories, none of those guys shied away from bragging about their kills. Our society has really changed and it really makes me wonder if our current martial skills reflect this.

Back in the day, if you trained with a person like Musashi, who claimed over 60 kills in duels, you know that you were learning the "real deal."

With that being said, has the relative peacefulness of our days ruined the martial arts?

Samurai's were warriors, a different issue altogether. That society also looked upon killing in a different light. The more kills, the more prestige as a warrior. We're, for the most part, civilians learning a skill to take care of ourselves.

I don't think the relative peacefulness has ruined martial arts at all. In fact, it has drastically expanded the number of people who can take advantage of what ma has to offer. I would say that schlock schools and instructors have done way more damage than a reasonably civilized society has.

 

[tellner]

The samurai also had the right to cut down any uppity commoners who weren't deferential enough and walk away. We don't live in a (brutal, caste-ridden, primitive) society like that.

One of the people in my martial arts lineage was a pretty famous fighter back in the day in Indonesia. He kicked a lot of booty, hurt a fair number of people in fights and wasn't modest about talking about it. A committee of his neighbors and fellow citizens poisoned him one day...

 

[Cruentus]

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Why do they include information on killing others on their site? Do they have no personal honor or respect for life?

It is very common to talk about a particular fighting method as having a proven track record. I don't think that this is a bad thing, and that is what I see the pekiti site and even Musashi way back when doing.

That is not the same as a person bragging about all of the killings he/she personally did in order to bolster ones ego or credability. Doing so is, in my opinion, dishonorable. I would say so no matter who does it.

So I think the reasons or motives behind talking about ones killings make all the difference. Basically if a person is doing it to benefit others, then it is honorable. If a person is only really doing it to benefit oneself, then it is not. This is just my opinion.

Honor aside, I think it is crucial that we recognize how unethical it is in our day and age with the cut-throat commercialism that exists in the martial arts world to bolster personal "experience" as the ultimate testimony of skill in the martial arts. I have seen far to often people of all ages, usually males from teens and young kids to middle-aged "born again tough guy" men, who seek out the same credability as a martial artist as their unethical instructor by unnessecarily putting themselves in violent situations in hopes to gain those same experiences. Besides, the idea that someone is the ultimate authority due to experiences is falacious logic. This is why it is important that as a whole we in the martial arts and combatives community don't promote this same unethical and eronious ideas.

So, "experiences" as a whole are important because that is our data, and that ultimately is what can prove or disprove combative methods. Personal track record, however, is not something that should be bought and sold.

That all said, I still am not convinced that martial arts skills have "degraded" over time. I think that they simply have changed. Things that are relevent to our modern circumstances have improved over time (like MMA sport grappling and gun fighting), while other things that are outdated (like combative sword fighting for example) have degraded somewhat. And of course, some methods within disciplines evolve for the better, and some not and get less useful. I think that the only thing that has changed is the times. But it seems to me that there were just as many outdated and dated, and effective and ineffective methods in relationship to the time period in the past as today. Musashi and other texts often make reference to other schools of which they assert are less effecient and effective and so forth.

But that is just what I think...

 

[Tez3]

I live and work in an evironment where I know many of the people have killed (and sadly been killed). I know my instructor has killed, he was in Spec forces and it's very rarely mentioned, only in drink or in passing and then with sadness. My shift partner is ex 3 Para (Falkands) and has also killed. Another work colleague is ex RM ( 42 CDORM also Falklands). Several of our students are in Iraq at the moment and have been involved in firefights which have resulted in deaths on both sides. No one boasts, even when you'd imagine that after losing mates to the enemy, they have killed that enemy.They aren't ashamed of what they've done but do realise the sadness of it all. (Anger is saved for the governments that put them there) That's all in a combat situation so there is no way they'd boast of killing someone in a martial arts situation.

 

[Chizikunbo]

On many forums for the past few years I have observed that many are inserting the killing of another human being into someone's personal bio. This is being done to validate a persons martial skills.
What are your views on this parctice?
Note-It is usually done buy a student/black belt who is writting a forum type bio about their direct Instructor or someone who is in their direct lineage.

This is ignorant! We as martial artist should work toward the preservation of human life...not be proud of taking one for that is not the DO. Human lives are valuable, and should not be bartered with for some ignorant status on an internet forum...If we look at the code of the Hwa Rang #4 it states "Never Take A Life Without A Cause" (and a damn good one at that) it takes a much better martial artist to end a confrontation without lethal force, than it does just to "kill someone". Being proud of such an act is immature, and socially/morally wrong. Even if you did take the life of an attacker as a last resort, it is definatly NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF!!!
And lets face it, even if for some bull (well you know) reason it was placed on forums you know must ignorant, stupid want-to-be's would be lying about such as thing, just as they do about rank, which shows their true character, growth, and mental development (or lack thereof).
--josh