oftheherd1
Senior Master
That might have possibilities. Thanks for the link.
Active Shooter Teenager Self Defense
- Thread starter Steve
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That might have possibilities. Thanks for the link.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Just going by evidence-driven statistics of "what actually works."
Not the students, per se, but as a part of a wholistic game-plan. Again, from an evidence-driven research paradigm:
"Professor Eric Dietz, previously the executive director for the Indiana Department of Homeland Security, conducted research in 2014 that found having either an armed guard or armed staff on school grounds can reduce the number of casualties in a mass shooting situation by up to 70 percent by, at the very least, slowing an attacker."
Research shows armed teachers could reduce casualties
And page 11 of FASTER
http://fastersaveslives.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/FASTER-White-Paper_REV032816.pdf
Honestly? That's it. Unarmed against a person with a gun, these are the most effective strategies.
If you want the plan for the "fight" part of it, here it is: Find a way to close. Guns are like a thrusting sword or knife with infinite range. Get inside the range, "pass the point" and control the limb. It's linear. Then beat the ever love'n snot out and maybe do a takedown. I'm assuming that the victims are completely disarmed of "weapons" (such as knives) so it's only "improvised weapons." Pencils and books suck as weapons, but they're sometimes better than nothing.
Hard to avoid politics because it is such a politicized topic.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Most of these "school shooters" were reported. The douchbag in Florida was reported multiple times. The FBI already had a warning as said douchbag wrote online what his plans were and an observer reported it. The local police went to the douchebag's home dozens of times.
Said douchebag was apparently voted for the yearbook "most likely to be a school shooter."
People saw. People reported. Nothing was done. Mostly for political reasons if reports are to be believed (money for raw numbers of school students and money for kids not arrested).
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
While I agree that trauma care is different for a gunshot the point of the original statement wasn't about what to do for a gunshot but what would be a better use of time and resources for the students calling for gun control. Their time would be more effectively used and more people would be saved, statistically speaking, if they spent their time learning CPR instead of the time they spend promoting gun control laws.
That said, a basic First Aid course which covers CPR and Trauma would be a great idea for almost everyone.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Depends on the teenager. I worked with one 13 year old boy who was already 160 and 5'7". He has just as much physicality as most adults.
Without commenting on the political aspect, my take on it was this politician was saying that the students calling for gun control are wasting their time and their time would be better spent learning CPR. I'm deliberately trying to avoid commenting on whether or not I agree with the statement.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
So effectively you're agreeing that this sort of incident is inevitable so there's no point trying to stop them happening in the first place, better just learn to mop up after?
While it's a waste of time to campaign for half hearted laws that don't do much, if anything, would it not be better to recommend spending that time on identifying and fixing the actual cause?
That much I agree with, everyone should know first aid - but I feel my reasons for that are somewhat different to yours...
lklawson
Grandmaster
Try as you might, there is (apparently) no way to escape the political side of it.
Saying people are wasting their time campaigning and lobbying is in itself a political statement, as is supporting a proposal to introduce policies about what they should do instead.
lklawson
Grandmaster
First Aid, really Trauma Care, is what you do after the shooting. I recall seeing some statistics which suggest that 50% or more of deaths from gunshots in these sort of events could have been prevented with proper application of tourniquets and chest seals. The idea isn't to be a combat medic, just to keep the injured "in the game" until a higher level of care can get there.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Not even that. Statistics show that mass school shootings aren't any more numerous now than in the past. In fact, they may be a tad lower depending one which statistical collection method you prefer. They're not more common but they are much more blasted out in the news.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-stop-the-school-shootings
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
I did not write that. Please do not play that game.
What I wrote, again, is that I believe that Santorum's statement was intended to mean that he believes that the students are wasting their time and effort and that their time and effort would be better spent in learning CPR if their intention is to save lives.
I have specifically refrained from stating my opinions on the efficacy of gun control laws or whether or not the students would actually be better off learning CPR instead or if their efforts are a waste of time.
Please do not engage in straw man arguments with me. It is insulting.
What I believe is the actual cause is outside of the bounds of the subject of this thread.
I'm not sure that you know what my reasons are and I'm sure that I don't know what yours are. And, at the moment, I'm still a little cheezed at you so I'm going to refrain from speculation.
lklawson
Grandmaster
OP
OP
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Hey guys. I have like 5 minutes to post something, but I appreciate the discussion.
My thoughts, building on what I was thinking before, and after reading the comments, are that the real key here is preventative. Once an event is occurring, the cards are stacked in the favor of the person who is armed. Honestly, some of this is what I teach new supervisors to do. We're not Bruce Willis types, but we are responsible for the safety of our employees.
So, things that kids can do before an event has occurred
1: Give some thought to what you would do if something happens. Think about where the exits are, and visualize some "what if" scenarios.
2: Take care of your friends, treat people well, and don't be a bully. Sometimes, the victims in these events are completely random. Sometimes, they are bullies (or perceived bullies) and are the primary targets.
3: Report suspicious behavior and understand that this isn't ratting out your peers.
4: Related to 2 above (and this might be hard), but don't stigmatize mental illness, and don't dismiss drug or alcohol abuse as benign.
5: Exercise and mind your fitness.
If something is occurring, I honestly can't think of anything better than to run away, if possible, and find cover if not. The only thing I might add is related to 1, which is to be decisive. If you're going to run, run like hell. If you're going to fight, fight like hell. Don't stop.
I'll just end by saying that I agree that the causes and possible solutions to this situation are outside the bounds of this discussion. I think there's value in discussing the situation as it is.
My thoughts, building on what I was thinking before, and after reading the comments, are that the real key here is preventative. Once an event is occurring, the cards are stacked in the favor of the person who is armed. Honestly, some of this is what I teach new supervisors to do. We're not Bruce Willis types, but we are responsible for the safety of our employees.
So, things that kids can do before an event has occurred
1: Give some thought to what you would do if something happens. Think about where the exits are, and visualize some "what if" scenarios.
2: Take care of your friends, treat people well, and don't be a bully. Sometimes, the victims in these events are completely random. Sometimes, they are bullies (or perceived bullies) and are the primary targets.
3: Report suspicious behavior and understand that this isn't ratting out your peers.
4: Related to 2 above (and this might be hard), but don't stigmatize mental illness, and don't dismiss drug or alcohol abuse as benign.
5: Exercise and mind your fitness.
If something is occurring, I honestly can't think of anything better than to run away, if possible, and find cover if not. The only thing I might add is related to 1, which is to be decisive. If you're going to run, run like hell. If you're going to fight, fight like hell. Don't stop.
I'll just end by saying that I agree that the causes and possible solutions to this situation are outside the bounds of this discussion. I think there's value in discussing the situation as it is.
lklawson
Grandmaster
I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but this might be useful:
https://try.usconcealedcarry.net/aar-complete-mass-shootings-survival-guide/?tID=5aabccbcd65ac
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Do you mean in the time between the shooting stops, and the professional gets there?
Ignoring everything else on the topic, this sounds like a good idea in general. Schools teach CPR, but with all the different ways someone can get injured, a basic first aid/first responder course could be very useful. I learned/taught that stuff for BSA, and have had to use the knowledge from it a bunch of times (in and out of scouts). Never for anything big, but just basic knowledge that makes life easier when someone gets hurt.
I'll cease involvement in this thread after this. Mainly because I'm incapable of looking at the effect without considering the cause, and it's now clear that anything to do with the cause is political...
I never meant for any of my comments to have a political slant, but after I was accused of doing so I reinterpreted what I'd said (and used the same interpretation of other's comments) and the majority - mine and others - can have political undertones.
Specifically to @lklawson - all I have to go on is what you've written, and my interpretation of those taken in relation to previous comments. If that is inaccurate (and considered by you to be a strawman) then all I can suggest is that something has been lost in translation...
I never meant for any of my comments to have a political slant, but after I was accused of doing so I reinterpreted what I'd said (and used the same interpretation of other's comments) and the majority - mine and others - can have political undertones.
Specifically to @lklawson - all I have to go on is what you've written, and my interpretation of those taken in relation to previous comments. If that is inaccurate (and considered by you to be a strawman) then all I can suggest is that something has been lost in translation...
I don't believe there was ever a time when mass killing of children in school by a gunman was ever less reported by the news.
That idea makes no sense.
OP
OP
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Stats on CPR aren't all that encouraging. The gist of what I've read on the subject indicates that it's not often used, and seldom effective even when someone receives it. Better than nothing, though, I guess.
I think some basic first aid is reasonable, but I'm not confident that even CPR certification will create people competent to administer CPR in a crisis.
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