Abstract vs. Reality

[bluewaveschool]

you got beef with ann landers?

 

[Gemini]

Gemini,

My initial story was meant to be an opportunity for thought and discussion, as opposed to an Ann Landers request for advice.

Well, you certainly did that. My fingertips hurt. Lol.

 

[StudentCarl]

Train him/them? Absolutely.
Think about it from a targeting point of view: bullies usually target kids who are easy targets--less athletic, less self-confident. Training a martial art addresses the whole person, helping him become a 'harder' target.

It wouldn't be wrong to address immediate skill needs, but I suspect the real value is in training the whole person to be more than he/she was. Fitness and toughness (ability to work through pain) are essentials, and are often absent in those bullied.

 

[dancingalone]

It wouldn't be wrong to address immediate skill needs, but I suspect the real value is in training the whole person to be more than he/she was. Fitness and toughness (ability to work through pain) are essentials, and are often absent in those bullied.

I'm going to work with him on striking with real intention behind it and will probably keep the technique pool to a lead hand punch, reverse punch, and front kick. Maybe how to cover up also.

Changing aspects about his personality/appearance/demeanor that makes him a target to bullies is a longer term project, and I wonder if that is an appropriate area for me to delve into anyway. It is simplest just to focus on the martial aspect of training. We're a young training group here at the church, having been open for only around 3 months now, and we're still getting our feet out on the ground about what 'pastoral' needs we want to try to address.

 

[StudentCarl]

I'm going to work with him on striking with real intention behind it and will probably keep the technique pool to a lead hand punch, reverse punch, and front kick. Maybe how to cover up also.

Changing aspects about his personality/appearance/demeanor that makes him a target to bullies is a longer term project, and I wonder if that is an appropriate area for me to delve into anyway. It is simplest just to focus on the martial aspect of training. We're a young training group here at the church, having been open for only around 3 months now, and we're still getting our feet out on the ground about what 'pastoral' needs we want to try to address.

Your ideas make sense to me. The one addition I'd make would be movement--important when attacked and even more so with multiple assailants. When I see rookies first try their newly learned skills, they tend to stand still and try to slug it out or cover-up in place.

 

[ATC]

...Changing aspects about his personality/appearance/demeanor that makes him a target to bullies is a longer term project,...

Those changes that you mentioned are all a by product of studing the martial arts. It is not something that you should need to look at specificly but by going through the process should take place anyways.

 

[dancingalone]

Those changes that you mentioned are all a by product of studing the martial arts. It is not something that you should need to look at specificly but by going through the process should take place anyways.

I understand what you are saying, but this student has a physical appearance irregularity. Pre-1960s or so, he would have been the norm, but alas these days everyone looks perfect... Martial arts won't take care of the 'problem', but $6000 in orthodontics will.

You make a generally good point however. This has been much my feeling about why I think the physical side of martial arts should be emphasized. The rest follows naturally if the training and the effort is good.

 

[ATC]

I understand what you are saying, but this student has a physical appearance irregularity. Pre-1960s or so, he would have been the norm, but alas these days everyone looks perfect... Martial arts won't take care of the 'problem', but $6000 in orthodontics will.

You make a generally good point however. This has been much my feeling about why I think the physical side of martial arts should be emphasized. The rest follows naturally if the training and the effort is good.

Ahhh...I see.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We all know martial arts should be principally about acquiring physical skills useful in a violent encounter. At least it should be in my opinion. Any other benefits (personal growth, physical fitness, etc.) are coincidental towards learning how to handle yourself in a fight to survive and possibly win one.

I've had students before who have used what I taught them successfully when called upon to do so, and I've been proud of their efforts each and every time. By extension, I suppose I am proud too of myself as a teacher for their success. But all of this has always been in the "what if" phase. Train now because you might need it later.

What do you all think about the prospect of someone asking you to teach them martial arts with a very good chance that they might need (want?) to use those skills in the very next months (weeks?). Would you train them, help them with a fight plan, etc? Assume you will be immune from any legal repercussions yourself when you answer. You may also assume that the prospective student in question is in the 'right' - they are not a bully or an aggressor.

First I would want to know why they feel that they may need it in the near future.

Are they LEO or soon to be deployed military? Are they being threatened by a bully at school in such a way as to make them feel that a physical confrontation is imminent? Are they an athlete preparing for match? Have they moved into a high crime area and/or had their neighbors mugged or attacked in a recent rash of violence? Is he or she being stalked and is fearful of some kind of violence such as rape?

Or...

Are they the newest patrons of a crack house? Are they getting drunk and getting into fights and decided that they want an edge? Do they have a paranoia and see a prowler behind every tree and a burglar behind every bush?

I'd kind of want to know the background of the request before taking it on. The mindset or lacking in the mind of the student has been brought up, but there is also the issue of whether or not the student, who may be a fine candidate for learning a martial arts, is going to be more confident than they ought to be after a short period of training and may then overlook what may be more sensible options.

So here is the rest of the story. The student is a 14 year old kid at my church who has attracted the attention of some bullies. I've accepted him in the class on the condition that his parents both train along side with him, which they've agreed to. No parents in tow, no kid in class. (This is a rule we have anyway to prevent the free class from becoming a drop in daycare.)

Parents and Junior understand that I see training him as an escalation of sorts in his conflict with the bullies and that this could in fact end badly for him if he fights them before he is mature enough in his technique and also his mental state of mind to be ready to 'win'.

We shall see how it goes. I've suggested they involve school and legal authorities first and the parents agree but they want Junior to learn some physical tools in the meantime just in case. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.

Now, since the case in question is bullies, I'd have some more questions.

What cause the bullies to turn their attention to him? Is it just his looks or is there more to it?
What steps have been taken through the school system? It appears that none have been taken. Mom and dad should be aware of what the school systems's policy on self defense is. In Montgomery County Maryland, all participants in a fight are punnished regardless of circumstances. Not saying that the kid shouldn't defend himself, but the kid and his parents need to be proactive in approaching the school authorities so that a case may be made that they tried to deal with the problem through the proper channels first.

Also, school officials in my area often involve the parents of the bully, which can sometimes provide a good incentive for the bully to knock it off.
Are the bullies even part of the school system? Apparently yes, as mom and dad indicate that they agree with you about involoving school authorities.
What is the nature of the bullying? Is it namecalling and implied threats or is it direct threats and perhaps some pushing and shoving? Assessing the nature of the threat is important; breaking another kid's nose for essentially being an obnoxious jerk may be satisfying but will likely draw the ire of school officials.
How many bullies are we talking about? And are they just spoiled kids who have nothing better to do or are they serious trouble makers? Are they older or the same age?
Is the bullying occurring on school grounds? If it is on school grounds or the bus, the school authorities have a lot more in the way of options than if it is happening as the boy is walking from either school to home or the bus to home.

As for physical tools, the first think I'd do is work with him on how he handles himself in the nonviolent aspects of the problem. Teaching him to be neutral was mentioned earlier (and I agree). I'd want him to be ready to act without looking like he's spoling for a fight. As far as technique, blocks, lots of blocks, and escapes. Footwork. I want him to be able to be able to keep from getting pinned down spacially. I want him to be able to get away. As far as attacks, I'd likely stick with basic punches and a fairly small set. Small enough that the student can gain at least enough proficiency to use them if he has to.

Given that there is more than one of them, my focus would be on escape and preventing him from being closed in. Given that we are talking about bullies, winning a fight is not the goal in my opinion. Effective exit and letting them know that he isn't a pushover (or an idiot) is. Bullies thrive on easier targets.

I wish the young man the best in this.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

What cause the bullies to turn their attention to him? Is it just his looks or is there more to it?
.....

Nice check list, Daniel.

As for physical tools, the first think I'd do is work with him on how he handles himself in the nonviolent aspects of the problem. Teaching him to be neutral was mentioned earlier (and I agree). I'd want him to be ready to act without looking like he's spoling for a fight. As far as technique, blocks, lots of blocks, and escapes. Footwork. I want him to be able to be able to keep from getting pinned down spacially. I want him to be able to get away. As far as attacks, I'd likely stick with basic punches and a fairly small set. Small enough that the student can gain at least enough proficiency to use them if he has to.

Given that there is more than one of them, my focus would be on escape and preventing him from being closed in. Given that we are talking about bullies, winning a fight is not the goal in my opinion. Effective exit and letting them know that he isn't a pushover (or an idiot) is. Bullies thrive on easier targets.

I think the situation has escalated beyond neutrality. They've been in a few scrapes already and the more it reoccurs, the chances are that the level of violence will also be escalated.

I will disagree with you on the technique list. 'Blocking', at the level of attainment this kid can learn in a matter of months, will probably be too passive and weak to keep as a primary strategy. I have the same feelings about the chances of escape, particularly if it is 3 on 1 as it as last time.

So what to do? Well, obviously we would prefer nonviolent solutions such as involving school and law enforcement officials. Failing that, I think he needs to protect himself from harm, and the best tactic for doing that when one is relatively unskilled is to mount a ferocious offense himself. So, a small list of strikes, trained with a high number of repetitions for accuracy and stopping power.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think the situation has escalated beyond neutrality. They've been in a few scrapes already and the more it reoccurs, the chances are that the level of violence will also be escalated.

I will disagree with you on the technique list. 'Blocking', at the level of attainment this kid can learn in a matter of months, will probably be too passive and weak to keep as a primary strategy. I have the same feelings about the chances of escape, particularly if it is 3 on 1 as it as last time.

Everything that he does, including offense, will be passive and weak to keep as a primary strategy at the level of attainment this kid can learn in a matter of months (assuming three months or less) and frankly, at this stage, I think we're talking weeks or days rather than months, given what you said above.

In a three on one stituation, he's pretty much screwed.... Which is why I advocated defense and escape along with basic punches and a fairly small set. Small enough that the student can gain at least enough proficiency to use them if he has to.

So what to do? Well, obviously we would prefer nonviolent solutions such as involving school and law enforcement officials. Failing that, I think he needs to protect himself from harm, and the best tactic for doing that when one is relatively unskilled is to mount a ferocious offense himself. So, a small list of strikes, trained with a high number of repetitions for accuracy and stopping power.

Pummel one hard and make his escape past him. That works. But he needs to prevent himself from being surrounded or backed up to a corner. And once he gets out, he needs to go speak with security.

The only problem that I see with relying on a 'ferocious offense' as the primary strategy is that things are immediately escalated and chances are, they will be escalated beyond his capabilities. We all hope that popping the bully in the mouth will make him back down. But more often than not, it just makes him that much more anxious to save face.

I have no problem whatsoever with violent solutions to violent attackers. But most bullied kids who have no means to protect themselves are not capable of the level of violence required to remedy the situation after only a month or two (or more) of training.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Everything that he does, including offense, will be passive and weak to keep as a primary strategy at the level of attainment this kid can learn in a matter of months (assuming three months or less) and frankly, at this stage, I think we're talking weeks or days rather than months, given what you said above.

I disagree. One can learn to target and project a significant amount of force within a simple strike like a straight thrust punch within a short period of time. Certainly enough to cause an uncasual amount of damage to human tissue.

In a three on one stituation, he's pretty much screwed.... Which is why I advocated defense and escape along with basic punches and a fairly small set. Small enough that the student can gain at least enough proficiency to use them if he has to.

The goal obviously is to manipulate the spacing so he is not engaged with all three at once. Keep one in front of the other two and deal with the immediate threat on a punch by punch basis. Time perception often lengthens in those situations and makes the visualization of multiple combat a tad more manageable.

Blocking is a poor tactic in multiple combat. It's pretty much avoid and counter while treating all three as different arms of an octopus.

Pummel one hard and make his escape past him. That works. But he needs to prevent himself from being surrounded or backed up to a corner. And once he gets out, he needs to go speak with security.

Exactly!

The only problem that I see with relying on a 'ferocious offense' as the primary strategy is that things are immediately escalated and chances are, they will be escalated beyond his capabilities. We all hope that popping the bully in the mouth will make him back down. But more often than not, it just makes him that much more anxious to save face.

I am telling him that if he decides to fight, it needs to be a committed engagement. Making a half-way show of defiance is obviously the worst thing he can do as he will likely have his '*ss kicked'.

I have no problem whatsoever with violent solutions to violent attackers. But most bullied kids who have no means to protect themselves are not capable of the level of violence required to remedy the situation.

I think this kid is. He's very weary of being bullied, enough to have sought out help on his own. No small matter IMO.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I disagree. One can learn to target and project a significant amount of force within a simple strike like a straight thrust punch within a short period of time. Certainly enough to cause an uncasual amount of damage to human tissue.

The goal obviously is to manipulate the spacing so he is not engaged with all three at once. Keep one in front of the other two and deal with the immediate threat on a punch by punch basis. Time perception often lengthens in those situations and makes the visualization of multiple combat a tad more manageable.

Blocking is a poor tactic in multiple combat. It's pretty much avoid and counter while treating all three as different arms of an octopus.

I agree with your post, though I think that you may have the wrong idea about how I advocate the use of blocks. I do not advocate standing and blocking/redirecting hoping to tire out or frustrate the opponent. And standing against three people trying to block their attacks is a recipe for disaster.

My original response was blocks and escapes with a small selection of strikes. Blocks to keep from getting popped in the face. Circular movements to get out of a wrist grab is what I was thinking of in terms of escapes. Nothing complicated; not enough time.

I would like to add teaching him to maintain an effective guard to facilitate protecting the face and striking once bullies go beyond verbal and to maintain a stance that is 'ready' without being overly aggressive beforehand.

Essentially, you and I are on the same page: target the one guy, give him a black eye/bloody nose/fat lip and move to a more strategic position. Use blocks to keep that one guy from popping him in the mouth.

Daniel