Abstract vs. Reality

[dancingalone]

We all know martial arts should be principally about acquiring physical skills useful in a violent encounter. At least it should be in my opinion. Any other benefits (personal growth, physical fitness, etc.) are coincidental towards learning how to handle yourself in a fight to survive and possibly win one.

I've had students before who have used what I taught them successfully when called upon to do so, and I've been proud of their efforts each and every time. By extension, I suppose I am proud too of myself as a teacher for their success. But all of this has always been in the "what if" phase. Train now because you might need it later.

What do you all think about the prospect of someone asking you to teach them martial arts with a very good chance that they might need (want?) to use those skills in the very next months (weeks?). Would you train them, help them with a fight plan, etc? Assume you will be immune from any legal repercussions yourself when you answer. You may also assume that the prospective student in question is in the 'right' - they are not a bully or an aggressor.

 

[Touch Of Death]

We all know martial arts should be principally about acquiring physical skills useful in a violent encounter. At least it should be in my opinion. Any other benefits (personal growth, physical fitness, etc.) are coincidental towards learning how to handle yourself in a fight to survive and possibly win one.

I've had students before who have used what I taught them successfully when called upon to do so, and I've been proud of their efforts each and every time. By extension, I suppose I am proud too of myself as a teacher for their success. But all of this has always been in the "what if" phase. Train now because you might need it later.

What do you all think about the prospect of someone asking you to teach them martial arts with a very good chance that they might need (want?) to use those skills in the very next months (weeks?). Would you train them, help them with a fight plan, etc? Assume you will be immune from any legal repercussions yourself when you answer. You may also assume that the prospective student in question is in the 'right' - they are not a bully or an aggressor.

teach the concept of neutrality, and how to stay neutral. There's half the battle right there.
Sean

 

[Gorilla]

I think that it is your responsibility to advise them to go through the proper authorities and make every attempt to stop any potential violence. You should train them to defend themselves if none of that works.

 

[granfire]

Hmm, interesting problem.

I think the true mark of a warrior (we can argue semantics later) is to not needlessly engage. Famous anecdote of the Old Master who leaves Young master on the river bank 'I would have not grown this old if I answered every challenge'

On the other hand, there is also the chance that a vital need of SD exists.
One of the kids in our TKD center was attacked by a school mate and 2 of his buddies - it's been an ongoing thing, even after the ambush authorities did little to nothing to the aggressor (the kid was a bit roughed up, but from what I have heard, he did get his licks in as well)

However, if you know your students are going to look for trouble, I think you better step away from it. In this day and age (OK, so I do watch too much L&O) I don't think it's advisable to the instructor.

 

[Gemini]

We all know martial arts should be principally about acquiring physical skills useful in a violent encounter. At least it should be in my opinion. Any other benefits (personal growth, physical fitness, etc.) are coincidental towards learning how to handle yourself in a fight to survive and possibly win one.


What do you all think about the prospect of someone asking you to teach them martial arts with a very good chance that they might need (want?) to use those skills in the very next months (weeks?). Would you train them, help them with a fight plan, etc? Assume you will be immune from any legal repercussions yourself when you answer. You may also assume that the prospective student in question is in the 'right' - they are not a bully or an aggressor.

First, I have to say that I disagree with with your initial statement that the other aspects of the art (personal growth, physical fitness, etc.) are coincidental. I beleive they are an equal part and just as important as the "martial" by design. In particular, identifying and therby avoiding a confrontation should alwaya be priority over winning one, though it's a solid second.

The fact that we have 2 different interpretations of martial arts and what they intentionally or otherwise encompass makes it a hard question. The way I interpret your question sounds like "Would you teach someone self defense?"

In a word...maybe. While I think at least basic defense techniques are valuable for most people and have taught some simple yet effective moves, there are those that I have not been willing to teach, simply because I didn't trust them with the knowledge. Given that in my mind there's s a large gap between fundamental defense techniques and what I teach as "martial arts" would I teach someone just the "martial" aspect of the art? No.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What do you all think about the prospect of someone asking you to teach them martial arts with a very good chance that they might need (want?) to use those skills in the very next months (weeks?). Would you train them, help them with a fight plan, etc? Assume you will be immune from any legal repercussions yourself when you answer. You may also assume that the prospective student in question is in the 'right' - they are not a bully or an aggressor.

In my case, the first issue would be time management. I teach a martial art which is more than just self defense. In order to train this person in a few weeks or months they would need to have a seperate program whcih I am not set up for or they would have to pay me more than they could probably afford for one on one training sessions.

Depending on the person and situation I might refer them to a straight out self defense program.

 

[dancingalone]

The way I interpret your question sounds like "Would you teach someone self defense?"

That's most of it. I think the key addition is "Would you teach someone self-defense knowing they will likely use it in the very near future?" The crux of it for me is how responsible are instructors for averting conflict that they themselves are not directly involved with? Do we 'arm' a person that needs it, knowing a fight will result, win or lose for the student? Or do we let them continue on in their status quo, presumably a poor situation in of itself?

 

[Disco]

I realize that for some, martial arts have become something more than what was their original intent. First and foremost, they were designed to protect you physically. This was their only reason for being established. Folks already had their religious, health and domestic well being already available, but the martial arts taught them how to fight and hopefully stay alive. Now the time between the martial arts beginnings and now, folks have opted to make them all inclusive and in doing so, IMO, the arts have in general, lost their preeminent resolve for being a combative venue and have become sports, community activity, wellness out reach, child care and who knows what else.

So with this understanding of what was the original intent, then if I as an instructor have someone, come to me and ask to be taught to defend themselves, for whatever reason, it's my obligation to offer that instruction. I'm not your doctor, religious leader, physical therapist, marriage adviser, baby sitter, mental health provider and whatever else you think I should be. My function is to teach you how to protect/defend yourself physically. Now if you should be encouraged to change your personal perspective on how you conduct yourself, because you feel that I project a better image as a human being than you currently see yourself, well that's a fringe benefit that just happen to surface and it's to the betterment of all, but it's still nothing more than an adjunct and not the focal point of our association.

I teach right outside of a military facility and have a few who come in with the understanding that they will be deployed in the very near future. I offer them the understanding that what I will show them and drill them on will be cut and dry nasty, save your life hopefully, in a harmful setting. I truly hope they don't have to use any of it, but if I can instill the correct mindset and physical attributes and if just one of them comes home in one piece because of something I offered, then there's no price tag that can be placed on that feeling. Now regardless if it's a bully in school or some one entering a hostile foreign land or the housewife at the local ATM, the outcome is the same, return home unscathed. That's my offering as an instructor.

 

[Gemini]

While I respect your position, Disco, I can't entirely agree with it. I do agree that martial arts was designed around its physical attributes, to my knowledge, (and no, I'm not a historian, but I've certainly done a fair bit of research on the topic) all martial arts training, regardless of origin begins in the mind, not the body. Where the mind goes, the body follows. Both have to grow together. The ability to mentally see ourselves going beyond what we thought was our ceiling...the mental fortitude to persevere...without it, the body will fail.
As I've said before, it's not a religion, it's a dedication. To dedicate ones body without the mind is not dedication at all. To provide physical technique to someone with a mind too weak to wield it responsibly is a recipe for disaster.

Regards,

 

[Disco]

"To provide physical technique to someone with a mind too weak to wield it responsibly is a recipe for disaster."

While I do agree that the mind and body should be in tuned with each other when undertaking a martial art, it's still not the responsibility of the instructor to foresee a lacking - mentally, in the student. One can train for decades and offer what would be seen as a stable, warrior if you will, mental fortitude, but when faced with a real life or death or even a minimal real physical altercation, may not mentally be up to doing what is called for. They can have all the physical attributes possible, but it's like the old saying......."It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!"

 

[Gemini]

While I do agree that the mind and body should be in tuned with each other when undertaking a martial art, it's still not the responsibility of the instructor to foresee a lacking - mentally, in the student.

Interesting. I guess this is where we differ, and the focal point of dancingalone's question. In my opinion, it's absolutely the instructor's/teachers responsibility to do just that. If I pass along knowledge, I will (and do) absolutely take some responsibility in what they do with it.

One can train for decades and offer what would be seen as a stable, warrior if you will, mental fortitude, but when faced with a real life or death or even a minimal real physical altercation, may not mentally be up to doing what is called for.

That's exactly my point. It's our responsibility to make the best decision we can with the information we have at the time. Certainly none of us can forsee the future but teaching someone the physical without the mental is like giving a child a loaded weapon without direction on how to use it. Which one of us teaches without at least the intent of giving our students every possible chance for success.

They can have all the physical attributes possible , but it's like the old saying......."It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!"

Oddly enough, I couldn't have picked a better phrase to support my position.

Regards,

 

[Earl Weiss]

That's most of it. I think the key addition is "Would you teach someone self-defense knowing they will likely use it in the very near future?" The crux of it for me is how responsible are instructors for averting conflict that they themselves are not directly involved with? Do we 'arm' a person that needs it, knowing a fight will result, win or lose for the student? Or do we let them continue on in their status quo, presumably a poor situation in of itself?

I teach everyone self defense as though they will need to use it in the near future.

 

[Disco]

"Certainly none of us can forsee the future"

That's the focal point of my rebuttal. I can't tell on how a student will react. They can put up the facade that their mentally committed, but I have no way of confirming that, until such time as they prove me wrong and then it's too late.

"but teaching someone the physical without the mental is like giving a child a loaded weapon without direction on how to use it."

Again, we have no viable way to gauge the mental aspect of the student. We can only offer the formulation of what we feel is the correct mental attitude that should accompany the physical attributes being taught, but we're still in the dark as to what actually the student is/has accepted.

"If I pass along knowledge, I will (and do) absolutely take some responsibility in what they do with it."

Under that premise, then every kind of teacher should be held responsible for their students actions. The high school driving instructor should be held responsible for his students crash----The chemistry teacher is responsible for the student becoming a Meth maker, and so on and so forth.......

We can't take responsibility for what a student does with whatever knowledge we happen to pass on. If that was really the case, there would not be a martial arts school in this country. That responsibility lies within the framework of how he/she was raised and what moral values were instilled by parents.

 

[Gemini]

I'm at the point where I'm just repeating myself, so I'll just close with this.

That's the focal point of my rebuttal. I can't tell on how a student will react. They can put up the facade that their mentally committed, but I have no way of confirming that, until such time as they prove me wrong and then it's too late.

What I said was, "It's our responsibility to make the best decision we can with the information we have at the time."

We all have the ability to gauge people to varying degrees. You can make a pretty fair assessment of the people you deal with. It's one of those "coincidental" things we practice as we learn our art and prepare to pass along our knowledge to others.

Again, we have no viable way to gauge the mental aspect of the student.

Again, of course we do. All people have "tells" that you can use to identify things about them. While the pratice doesn't come with a written warranty, it certainly takes you a long was from what you refer to as "no viable way".

We can only offer the formulation of what we feel is the correct mental attitude that should accompany the physical attributes being taught, but we're still in the dark as to what actually the student is/has accepted.

A students actions will tell you what they have accepted.

"If I pass along knowledge, I will (and do) absolutely take some responsibility in what they do with it."

Under that premise, then every kind of teacher should be held responsible for their students actions. The high school driving instructor should be held responsible for his students crash----The chemistry teacher is responsible for the student becoming a Meth maker, and so on and so forth.......

We can't take responsibility for what a student does with whatever knowledge we happen to pass on. If that was really the case, there would not be a martial arts school in this country. That responsibility lies within the framework of how he/she was raised and what moral values were instilled by parents.

That's like saying we can't take pride in our student's accomplishments either. Of course we can. We can and we do on a regular basis. You're making it sound like an all or nothing proposition; like we take ALL the responsibility. Of course not, but you as the instructor will and should take some responsibility in both your students successes and failures. Whether you like it or not, or are willing to accept it or not, you do have accountability.

To go back to my original response to the original, if I feel someone is not mentallly capable of handling what they want me to teach them, I'm not going to teach them. period.

Regards,

 

[Nomad]

What do you all think about the prospect of someone asking you to teach them martial arts with a very good chance that they might need (want?) to use those skills in the very next months (weeks?). Would you train them, help them with a fight plan, etc? Assume you will be immune from any legal repercussions yourself when you answer. You may also assume that the prospective student in question is in the 'right' - they are not a bully or an aggressor.

If I'm reading this right, it seems to imply that the person anticipates needing real self-defence skills in the near future to face a real threat with a high likelihood of violence ensuing (where they are clearly in the "right").

In this circumstance, I can't imagine letting the person face the situation without skills that I could help provide. I would absolutely train them to the best of my ability, while at the same time trying to look for other, non-violent solutions to their problem (encouraging the person to file police reports, get restraining orders, or whatever would be appropriate depending on the situation).

 

[Disco]

"I'm at the point where I'm just repeating myself, so I'll just close with this."

On this we agree............So we'll agree to disagree!.....:asian:

 

[dancingalone]

So here is the rest of the story. The student is a 14 year old kid at my church who has attracted the attention of some bullies. I've accepted him in the class on the condition that his parents both train along side with him, which they've agreed to. No parents in tow, no kid in class. (This is a rule we have anyway to prevent the free class from becoming a drop in daycare.)

Parents and Junior understand that I see training him as an escalation of sorts in his conflict with the bullies and that this could in fact end badly for him if he fights them before he is mature enough in his technique and also his mental state of mind to be ready to 'win'.

We shall see how it goes. I've suggested they involve school and legal authorities first and the parents agree but they want Junior to learn some physical tools in the meantime just in case. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.

 

[Disco]

Looks as though you've covered all the bases. As far as the school and authorities (police), well their reactive after the fact. That's just the nature of the system. The bottom line to this is that unless the family moves or for some untold reason the bullies decide to leave him alone (highly unlikely) there will come the time when he will undoubtedly be forced to stand and fight. Hopefully, he won't be tested before he's ready, but if by chance the bullies find out he's taking lessons, rest assured they'll try him on. You may want/need to put him on a more focused training regime, then that of a normal class, just a suggestion. I wish you well with your instructions and also wish the family well with their problem.

A word of caution if I may.......Don't let yourself get emotionally involved if you can help it. I realize it's difficult, because you know the reason for the family seeking you out, but try your best to shield yourself. :asian:

 

[Gemini]

So, Dancingalone, I'm a little confused as tio why you didn't just describe the situation for what it was in the first place, which is a basic self defense situation that some unfortunate kid is subjected to somewhere everyday? It sorta sounded like a basic SD question, but the way you phrased it made it seem like something much more cryptic. Maybe it was just me. No harm, just curious. That's not to say I didn't enjoy the discussion with Disco.

So re-reading your second post makes me think you're concerned about the underlying role you will play? Which course of action is best for the young man in question? Since you've already agreed to take this on, the initial question is mute, no?

You mention instructors responsibility in averting conflict. I would strongly recommend this as your highest priority. You mentioned "Bullies". You have to know anyone would have trouble against multiple opponents and his chances of learning anything effective and executing it on multiple opponents isn't good. While it may be true that Bullies don't normally like to pick on people that can defend themselves, you don't want it to go here if you can avoid it.

You may want to point out that while you're willing to help them, formal training could certainly reduce the chance of this re-occurring in the future.

Regards,

 

[dancingalone]

Gemini,

My initial story was meant to be an opportunity for thought and discussion, as opposed to an Ann Landers request for advice.