Abortion pills for everyone...including predators...unintended consequences...
- Thread starter billc
- Start date
Blade96
Senior Master
Hi Billybob, nice to see you too
Hope you have been well? It looks like it. Oh but they are smart enough to have a baby? which is what you lot would make her do if her biology failed her. Ohhh PUH - LEEEZE.
There is adoption. There is leaving the infant at a fire station or hospital, no questions asked, no penalty or punishment...and the baby lives...and has a chance...or the family can help her raise the baby, the grandson or granddaughter of the grandparents...
And one day, maybe...they can meet and get to know one another when they are both ready to know each other...which won't happen if the baby is killed...
And one day, maybe...they can meet and get to know one another when they are both ready to know each other...which won't happen if the baby is killed...
Blade96
Senior Master
How will that solve an unwanted pregnancy? Thats for unwanted parenting.
Blade96
Senior Master
But I dont wanna wait 9 months. I dont wanna reproduce. have kids. Ever. I have no other option but abortion if my body failed me.
The issue you are ignoring is the difference between physical maturity and mental maturity. Most people would accept that physically children are maturing earlier but mentally, research suggests, takes much longer.
This research provides much more support for ballen's point of view than yours. A thirteen year old is a child and many years off mental maturity. I don't believe a thirteen year old is capable of mature thinking but that will not stop a thirteen year old thinking they are making a sensible decision on having sex. However, if that thirteen year old is mature enough to realise she has had unprotected sex and needs to do something about it then more power to her. Give her the MAP.
Yes children have rights but we need to differentiate between the rights of a child to enjoy that childhood and the laws that protect the child from exploitation.
Within society there are many people of limited intelligence so yes, a twelve year old child might be as bright as some of them. If you are one of those people who feel that a teenager has the same mental maturity as you, then I might suggest that you may have a problem! :asian:
These are all nice ideas, and sometimes, to one degree or another, work. I've gotta say, though, I've had some odd fate in this regard: I've an adopted sister. My kids' mom was adopted. Rita-that's the wife-was adopted. In each case, to one degree or another, they have been deeply psychologically scarred by the fact of what they view as abandonment-and/or feelings of displacement-of "not belonging" in the families they grew up with.
And again, this is another "fairy tale" which doesn't always have a "happy ending" when it occurs-I think those reunnions are a little happier nowadays-in fact, such reunions are easier to arrange these days, by way of how the adoptions themselves are arranged: for my generation and my sister's, this simply wasn't true-all three women went through a fair bit of difficulty reconnecting, with varying degrees of success ranging from outright rejection to ambivalence to-in what is still something of a rarity-an immediate ongoing and deep relationship ,albeit one that has its own share of distance and ambivalence:An interview with Rita's birth mother
In any case, adoption is an easy option to preach when you're guaranteed to never be pregnant, and
I believe weve pretty well established that what most of us are talking about here is a pill that prevents the implantation of eight cells-eight cells without a beating heart. Eight cells that might not be implanted in the uterus anyway, even if they did, in fact, occur-which someone who takes this pill will never know, whether conception ever took place of not.
No "baby."
Plus, the premise of the OP is just downright stupid-the idea that this pill enables predators and its availability is any sort of "unintended consequence" is ridiculous.
John, I appreciate some of your viewpoints, but this is a little OTL.....as in, "Out To Lunch."
First off, in the Hawaiian Island thread, wasn't it you who was arguing that children belong to their parents?
Secondly, all things in nature ripen in their own time. You can no more set a child loose with the rights and responsibilities of adulthood than you can define "as soon as they are capable." For some children, this truly might be or have been as soon as you envision, for others, it might not be until well past 40......if ever. :lol:
In any case, adolescent male impulsivity being what it is, I think your idea would do a lot for population control. :lol:
I'm a fair example of this: as I've posted elsewhere,I was very much on my own from the age of 16. I wish I could say that I always made good decisions-or the right ones-but I did not. I wish I could say that it's anything but luck that I'm still vertical and breathing-given some of the decisions that I made-but it's not; it was just dumb luck in too many instances. :lol:
No, while I agree that society keeps people "children" for far too long, adolescents are simply not ready or capable for all the rights and responsibilities of adulthood. Some of them? Absolutely, on a case by case basis, but not all of them. You attempt to politicize the issue only clouds the fact that everywhere in nature, mammalian parents rear their children-they are, from the start, responsible for almost all aspects of their lives, until they achieve some sort of majority.
That's why we it's called "adulthood."
In January, I went to a conference and spoke with some of the top brain scientists in the field of education and asked a couple of questions.
The first was whether or not brains were studied from outside our culture, because other comparative studies show that the sturm and drang of adolescence disappears in non-western cultures where children are given responsibilities of adults when they reach sexual maturity. The answer was no.
I followed up with another question. Do we know if the late development of brains in our culture is due to the fact that our society extends childhood or is it reflective of a natural pattern that all humans experience? Again, the answer is no.
Again, I brought up the cross cultural studies from the book I cited earlier, because it seemed to contradict the idea that this was a natural phenomenon. Here is a summation of the answer I received. The presenter said that we needed to be very careful about making sweeping judgements. These studies show how the study groups brains are developing, but do not present a clear reason why. For kids in our culture, this might be a useful guide in describing the pattern of maturation and possibly making some predictions.
I can accept that answer, but the idea that our society has slowed down the maturation of our children's brains, literally retarded the maturation, should get everyone to pause and think. This is not so controversial if you stop and consider your own family's history a few generations back. For example, my grandparents experienced a degree of responsibility and freedom that would probably have landed their parents in trouble with the law now days!
They grew up faster. It is evident that children evolved to grow up faster than our society allows because of where sexual maturity occurs. This retardation of maturity is completely new in our species history. Perhaps some individuals never recover from it.
Of course they grew up faster; they had to. They didn't live as long, either. It's not "retardation," it's evolution. Primates-mammals in general, really-rear their offspring until their offspring are capable of rearing offspring. Note that last, capable of rearing offspring, not "capable of reproduction." Look to our primate cousins: most gorillas don't reach what is considered "adulthood" until between the ages of 13 and 15. Chimpanzees generally don't stray more than 15 feet from their mothers until they're about 5, and don't reach "adulthood," again, until they're between the ages of 13 and 15. Our society, though, is more complex than our primate cousins', not in the least because we have, over time, extended our lifespan. There is no need-or capability-for a 13-15 year old to "rear offspring" in most modern societies, and so they shouldn't have to, and have the luxury-rather than the burden or enslavement that you portray- of an extended developmental period. My great-grandfather went to sea at 15 to earn a living at our family's very difficult trade. While I was on my own not long after that age-for my own reasons-I'm thankful that my grandfather, father and son had no need or reason to do so....
If parents are good "stewards" of their children, see what I did there, doesn't the concept of having arbitrary lines set for the assumption of various rights and freedom, take away the actual responsibility of being a steward? Doesn't it undermine your discretion as a parent?
This is only a minor aspect of what I'm talking about, though. Consider my experience as a "child".
I was a good kid at 12. I took care of my four brothers while my parents worked, went shopping, made dinner, took care of my kid brother. I drove my grandfathers tractor safely safely and was big for my age. My scout troop invited me on a huge backpacking trip that was a benchmark experience in my life. It was supposed to be a trip for older boys, but I had the trust of my scout leader and he had confidence in me. This built my confidence and made me want to be more mature and responsible in the future.
It also helped to set me aside from my peers in school. I remember being treated like a child in that place, demeaned and talked down to. I remember the friends who never did anything in their families and never were trusted with anything. We grew estranged by middle school and I found that I preferred the company of adults over kids my own age.
The arbitrary lines didn't work for me. The predicted adolescent development was completely wrong. This was due to the way I was raised. My parents gave me responsibility, and when I handled it, I earned that and more freedom.
Consider mine: college graduate at 16, schoolteacher at 17, student again for a few years, MIT dropout and married at 22-kids at 23, working and back to school-I've been on my own-for a bunch of different reasons-pretty much since I was 13 and went to boarding school, but truly since I was 16 years old. Was I atypical? You betcha, obviously. Would I have done it any differently? Sometimes, in some ways, sure. Did I benefit from it? Yes. Did I suffer because of it? Yes. Might I have benefited from a longer "childhood"-as in," dependence upon my parents?" Yes. Might I have suffered from it? I dunno.......doesn't seem very likely.
The real point though, is that "sexual maturity" doesn't necessarily equate with "maturity," and capability, willingness, desire-and even responsibility-to act on that maturity doesn't necessarily equate with ability to participate in society as a functional adult. I mean, yeah, I was on my own, having sex when I could, and taking care of things, but all of that could have gone to hell if I hadn't been able to balance my checkbook-and, let's face it, a lot of 13 year olds can't. It all would have been for naught if I hadn't gotten up in the morning to go to work, and, let's face it, a lot of 40 year olds won't. :lol:
There is no case for a blanket granting "adulthood" at an earlier age in modern western society; some of it should probably be "tweaked." It's a crime that an 18 year old can vote or die for his country but can't buy a goddam beer, but what are you gonna do? Adolescent impulsivity being what it is, even 21 year olds drinking are a threat to society....:lol:
You, uh, were a child. You shouldn't be "demeaned and talked down to," but, unfortunately, that is a frequent adult failure-one neither my parents nor I suffered from.
Again, on a case by case basis, this is more than possible; the lines are just not that "arbitrary"-and there are even avenues for more freedom within the legal framework of our society-even nearly 40 years ago: a lot of people had difficulty with a high-school teacher who was high-school age, but there I was....for the most part, though, not everyone can handle "more responsibility" at an earlier age. I was outside those lines, but not everyone can live in that place, or be comfortable there-it was easier for me back then-I looked older, the "legal majority" was, in fact, 18 in New York, but I also can't say that I was completely prepared for some of the things I encountered, or that I handled them well, or in an "adult"manner.
hell, I can't say as much at 53...:lol:
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There is no need for teenagers in a modern society to raise children, in fact, it's detrimental. However, this does not stop the evolutionary sexual clock from ticking.
This same concept applies to the mind. Our ancestors grew up faster and their minds matured at a comparable rate. There is plenty of evidence for this. There is also plenty of evidence that suggests that our minds are far more flexible than our sexual drives. A teenagers mental maturity can be retarded and their sexual maturity can remain the same.
In more than one way, I think this has probably been a disaster for young people.
Yet, I hold that young people are far more capable than adults give them credit for. I regularly work with young people who desperately need to be treated like adults...and when I do this, I earn their respect.
What sort of school demeans and talks down to its pupils?
I know that we are in different countries and I went to school almost a generation before you, Maka but, whilst I was expected to do as I was told and do the work I was set (even if I thought it was pointless or too easy), the school environment was one of discipline not torment.
As for teenagers being ready for responsibility, I will grant that some are and that they handle it well. Many, however, need a lot of guiding before they get the hint. When even simple politeness eludes them, what hope do they have of escaping the delusions of their ego? Far too much time and effort is spent on making them feel 'special' rather than making them realise that if they want to be treated as if they have some worth then they actually have to demonstrate that they are.
I know that we are in different countries and I went to school almost a generation before you, Maka but, whilst I was expected to do as I was told and do the work I was set (even if I thought it was pointless or too easy), the school environment was one of discipline not torment.
As for teenagers being ready for responsibility, I will grant that some are and that they handle it well. Many, however, need a lot of guiding before they get the hint. When even simple politeness eludes them, what hope do they have of escaping the delusions of their ego? Far too much time and effort is spent on making them feel 'special' rather than making them realise that if they want to be treated as if they have some worth then they actually have to demonstrate that they are.
This is a great discussion, I'm glad I can participate in it with you chaps. There are a lot of points I'd like to address, particularly the idea that we should "tweak" the rules for majority, that teenagers can act rude and immature, and that treating our kids like they are "special" has become an issue.
What the research shows clearly is that teenagers in non-Western society transition into adulthood much faster. What the research also shows is that brains of young people in Western society develop more slowly, often taking until the age of 25 to form adultlike patterns. It's also clear that Western society places demands on young people that separate their assumption of adulthood and separate it from the age of sexual maturity. These demands have infantalized our young people. Our society is causing a lot of the problems we see in teenagers. I guess the point I want to make is that it's not the young people's fault that they are they way they are. It's the fault of the adults who formed and accept the society around them.
So, how does our society stop retarding the development of our young people's brains? This is a question that I think all parents should think about and FEEL some guilt for. Then, turn around and use this guilt to create something better for our young people. The cure for the retardation of our young people is for adults to have higher expectations and create an environment where young people can grow into adults at a "natural" rate.
If I could rearrange society, I would do the following.
1. Change the arbitrary lines so that teenagers who develop more abilities can accept more responsibilities as soon as they can demonstrate it. This can be done with simple tests. We already have a driving test in America that dips below the age of majority. I think we could add a financial test, a marriage test, and an emancipation test that would allow a young person to completely separate from their parents. I think most adults would actually be surprised at how much responsibility is legally withheld from teenagers.
2. We need to change middle and high school into a form of schooling that encourages freedom and responsibility. This is going to completely restructure the schooling experience and it's something that I've actually put a fair amount of professional work into.
3. We need parents to think of their young people differently. We need parents to have higher expectations and to teach that freedom is not given, it is earned. It should be no surprise that young people act like entitled pricks when all they have to do is laze around and reach a certain age before they get to taste freedom. It should also come as no surprise that many cannot handle the responsibility when they get there. Arbitrary lines provide no guidance and government schooling cannot take over the responsibilities of the parent.
4. Ultimately, I think we need to chip away at the entitlement society we have created. We need to tackle this idea that services are given and not earned. Of course I'm talking about dismantling the Welfare State here. The Entitlement Society and the problems above are tendrils of the Leviathan of government. When society itself removes personal responsibility from adults, the young people suffer the most because now the adults are incapable of teaching them how to live.
It doesn't surprise me that brain development in young people is retarded in this environment. The truth is that brain development is becoming more retarded as the generations go. This is an effect of the Welfare State. It has infantalized everyone in it's grasp. The good news is that adults don't have to give up their government freebies right away. If they did 1-3 on my list, the need for the Wellfare State disappears in a few generations.
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This is just your theory. Personally I think it is totally wrong, but, I could be convinced if you old provide some credible evidence rather than hypothesis. :asian:
I cited a book that compiles the research. It's called The Case Against Adolescence. Check it out. I think it's a convincing argument. And you are right, the Welfare State bit is my interpretation. The author in the above cited book thinks the government should be in charge of guiding people to responsibility. Disappointing, but not surprising from a high level academic.
