Abortion pills for everyone...including predators...unintended consequences...

[ballen0351]

I think it comes down to different parenting styles. 1st being the "friend" parent. Where kids are given more some times too much freedoms.
2nd being the disciplinarian where we restrict many freedoms
3rd being the "I don't care" parents where kids basically raise themselves
4th being a combo of the above.

I was raised in the 1st and 3rd. I made a ton of mistakes I didn't need to make had my parents been real parents andnot my friends. I turned out OK I guess but my sisters a welfare mother with 3 kids with different dads, living off the govt and my parents.

I trust my kids to make good choices but I will check up on them using whatever methods I have available. I think elder said it Trust but Verify. And in today's age of cell phone trackers and Facebook its easier then ever. We also are very involved in everything they do. My wife is on the PTA and at the school everyday. I coach the kids sports teams. We make an effort to know my kids friends and their parents. Now I'm smart enough to know my kids will break the rules but I will know about it when it happens and deal with it

 

[Steve]

I didn't say you were OK with kids doing this I would hope no parents are OK. You and others come across as "well they are going to do it anyway so what can we do about it". That's where we differ. I don't want to just throw up my hands and say oh well. By making this drug available to kids with out parental consent you are basically leaving you kid out to dry. Making them make tough life altering choices by themselves when they are not mature enough to make these choices.

I see where you're coming from. We just disagree a little. I think that there are some kids making these life altering choices without any help already. They're out there, and they don't have many choices. At the point where Plan B comes into play, that life altering choice has already been made, which was to have unprotected sex. The use of contraceptive is the choice that keeps their lives from being altered, even if it's a day too late.

I have never once asked for no access to these pills my concern is unrestricted access to minors.

I get that.

 

[elder999]

I think it comes down to different parenting styles. 1st being the "friend" parent. Where kids are given more some times too much freedoms.
2nd being the disciplinarian where we restrict many freedoms
3rd being the "I don't care" parents where kids basically raise themselves
4th being a combo of the above.

I kinda have to disagree with this....not so much your observations as thei lack of another classification, what I call an "engaged parent," which might be your "combo of the above," except for the whole #3 thing, "I don't care where kids basically raise themselves." I can't say that I always knew where my kids were as they got older, but I always cared. They'd earned a measure of trust in that regard, though, and they proved themselves worthy of that trust-trust that they could start making important decisions for themselves-bottom line, when a kid is confronted with the choice to take drugs-as an example-his parents won't be there with him to make it for him,except in how they've raised him and taught him. And sometimes, in spite of that, it seems, kids decide to do what their parents would never have expected them to do. Kids make mistakes, and good parents-engaged parents-allow them to make those mistakes-to be in a position to make those mistakes, and learn from them....

This drug (to sort of get back on topic) is for people who make mistakes. I also don't need to tell you that a rape victim-of any age-might be more than a little reluctant to tell their parents or the authorities. The availability of this drug will at least alleviate a few females additional anxiety: worrying that they might become pregnant because they were raped.

 

[Makalakumu]

13 year olds don't have rights. Sorry its how it is. If they did they could vote, drink, not be forced to attend school, get full time jobs ect all things we as a collective society decided.

What if this is wrong? What if 13 year olds deserve far more freedom than we currently "allow" them? Childism is a new ism coming down the line.

 

[ballen0351]

What if this is wrong? What if 13 year olds deserve far more freedom than we currently "allow" them? Childism is a new ism coming down the line.

Are you serious with this?

 

[billc]

Why stop at 13? I think klingons say when a child can hold a knife they are adults...why not apply that standard here...? Why not 6, or 7...? Heck, they should be allowed to drive and drink...

 

[elder999]

Why stop at 13? I think klingons say when a child can hold a knife they are adults...why not apply that standard here...? Why not 6, or 7...? Heck, they should be allowed to drive and drink...

Because while it's possible, it's extremely unlikely that a child under 9 or 10 could get pregnant.

 

[Makalakumu]

Are you serious with this?

Totally serious. Children are the most oppressed group in our society. Adults can force them to do all kinds of things aganst their will and legally beat them. Adults can deny them the ability to work and own property. Adults can totally control what a child does with their body. This is a real issue.

 

[billc]

Childism is a new ism coming down the line.

Why stop at 13? I think klingons say when a child can hold a knife they are adults...why not apply that standard here...? Why not 6, or 7...? Heck, they should be allowed to drive and drink...​

​

 

[elder999]

Why stop at 13? I think klingons say when a child can hold a knife they are adults...why not apply that standard here...? Why not 6, or 7...? Heck, they should be allowed to drive and drink...​

​

Didn't someone already say this exact same thing???

Oh, yeah. It was YOU! :lfao:

 

[ballen0351]

Totally serious. Children are the most oppressed group in our society. Adults can force them to do all kinds of things aganst their will and legally beat them. Adults can deny them the ability to work and own property. Adults can totally control what a child does with their body. This is a real issue.

Wow thats Looney toon

 

[Makalakumu]

Wow thats Looney toon

I'm sure the same thing was said when some people claimed that dark skinned humans were people.

 

[K-man]

Totally serious. Children are the most oppressed group in our society. Adults can force them to do all kinds of things aganst their will and legally beat them. Adults can deny them the ability to work and own property. Adults can totally control what a child does with their body. This is a real issue.

This thread has certainly had some interesting twists. Although I disagree with Ballan's position on post coital contraception, I can understand where he is coming from.

Maka, I'm sorry but I find your position quite bizarre. For starters, you may be able to legally beat children where you live but it is classed as assault in many countries including Australia. I personally think that a quick smack at appropriate times never hurt anyone but even that is no longer allowed. All animals take a certain time to reach maturity and it depends on how you define maturity in the case of humans. Sexual maturity is not a particularly good measure. Physical maturity takes about four or five years longer and mental maturity takes even longer. Adults may be physically able to control what a child does with their body but the child has legal rights. To say that children are 'oppressed' is a really extreme statement. :asian:

 

[K-man]

I'm sure the same thing was said when some people claimed that dark skinned humans were people.

Mmm! Yeah, right. :jaw-dropping:

 

[Makalakumu]

This thread has certainly had some interesting twists. Although I disagree with Ballan's position on post coital contraception, I can understand where he is coming from.

Maka, I'm sorry but I find your position quite bizarre. For starters, you may be able to legally beat children where you live but it is classed as assault in many countries including Australia. I personally think that a quick smack at appropriate times never hurt anyone but even that is no longer allowed. All animals take a certain time to reach maturity and it depends on how you define maturity in the case of humans. Sexual maturity is not a particularly good measure. Physical maturity takes about four or five years longer and mental maturity takes even longer. Adults may be physically able to control what a child does with their body but the child has legal rights. To say that children are 'oppressed' is a really extreme statement. :asian:

I think it's a measure of how much Australians respect their children that they would not allow them to be hit. Hats off to your country, my friend...but there is still a long way to go in regards to children's rights.

For example, would you give your wife a quick smack if she didn't listen? Of course not, because society expects you to use reason with your partner. The same expectation could also apply to children. They are capable of logic and reason at a very young age. Far younger than most people expect.

This is just one example of the kind of deep seated prejudice that people have against young humans. Take a look at the book I posted before. That tome is the most comprehensive argument about what children are capable of and when that you will find anywhere.

The bottom line is that our society has infantalized children and has artificially extended childhood. The underlying concepts for this discussion of birth control are based on an anti-child bias.

The child does not own their body, according to some people.

 

[Makalakumu]

Mmm! Yeah, right. :jaw-dropping:

Shocking isn't it? Imagine children having the rights and responsibilities of adulthood as soon as they are capable. Imagine what that kind of trust would do to a child's self esteem.

 

[Sukerkin]

Complete nonsense, Maka :chortles good naturedly:. I nearly always appreciate your Blue Sky thinking and the 'left field' viewpoint that comes with it but you have to come down to earth sometimes or you lose all sense of perspective and reality.

I'm as Liberal as they come, much more so than what the American political slide-rule would measure as Liberal. Even so, in my opinion, children, in the main, are unsocialised, irresponsible, animals, who only become a reasonable facsimile of 'human' through discipline. For some that discipline need only be a stern word; for others, like me, more physical methods are necessary to smooth off the 'wild and splintered' edges. A blanket approach can never hope to cope with the diversity of personality and nature that will manifest through the genetic lottery.

 

[Makalakumu]

Complete nonsense, Maka :chortles good naturedly:. I nearly always appreciate your Blue Sky thinking and the 'left field' viewpoint that comes with it but you have to come down to earth sometimes or you lose all sense of perspective and reality.

I'm as Liberal as they come, much more so than what the American political slide-rule would measure as Liberal. Even so, in my opinion, children, in the main, are unsocialised, irresponsible, animals, who only become a reasonable facsimile of 'human' through discipline. For some that discipline need only be a stern word; for others, like me, more physical methods are necessary to smooth off the 'wild and splintered' edges. A blanket approach can never hope to cope with the diversity of personality and nature that will manifest through the genetic lottery.

I respect your opinion, Mark, but I seriously think this is a blindspot in your thinking. If we would erase children and insert any other social group into your description of children, it would be viewed as a vicious prejudice.

The problem I think most people have with children's rights is that everyone was a child at one time. If we accept that children are rational human being capable and worthy of human rights, we must also accept that the way we were treated as children was wrong and was, in fact, an abuse of power.

This realization will redefine many personal relationships in new and painful ways. Suddenly, the father who punished you with force in the name of love...is not so loving. Suddenly, the teacher who forced you to learn, "for your own good" is not so moral. Suddenly, the State that denied you birth control because it thought that you were an "unsocialised irresponsible animal" starts to look like the violent oppressive entity it really is.

Extending full personhood to children as soon as possible and conferring all rights as soon as the child proves themselves capable is one of the fundamental reforms our society needs to make in order to make real progress toward a better society. It would give children a goal to work toward rather than have them wait until told. This would prompt children to take responsibility for their lives, rather than simply expecting an authority to tell them what to do.

So, yes, this is a major unrealized prejudice in our culture. It's probably the one that most people are going to have the bigest problem giving up because of the personal nature of what people have to accept.

 

[billc]

If we accept that children are rational human being

See, this is where the theory falls apart...

 

[Makalakumu]

See, this is where the theory falls apart...

Why? Do you have children, Bill?