Abortion pills for everyone...including predators...unintended consequences...

[Steve]

I don't get it. Back in 1985 I bought a box of condoms at 14 years old. My parents weren't there. I don't see how this is different.

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[ballen0351]

I don't get it. Back in 1985 I bought a box of condoms at 14 years old. My parents weren't there. I don't see how this is different.

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Because a box of condoms isn't a medication that has side effects. If an adult takes them that's fine you understand the risk. I'm responsible for my child and her health. She shouldn't be allowed to buy medications with out a parents consent. Kids are kids they do stupid things and are not responsible enough to take medications without adult supervision. I can easily see a girl saying well of one pill will work then I get 5 to make 100% sure I don't have a baby. If an 18 year old says that fine but a 13 year old isn't smart enough to make the choice.
I don't care if they hand the crap out at every bar in the US here's your beer and your oops I made a bad choice pill as long as your an adult. I disagree with kids being able to buy it without permission.
A 13 year old takes it and has a reaction to it. If I didn't even know she took a medication it could delay the proper treatment causing permenant health effects or worse.
Im not sure how you dont see a difference between a condom and a medication.

 

[ballen0351]

I wasn't suggesting you had missed the point of it

So when you said the point being missed is the pill is not just for kids what did you mean?

, and yes, I am OK with it. I am even more OK with it because medicines are more controlled here than in the US and the person purchasing the medication is going to get proper advice on how to use it.. But regardless of that, I would rather my child have access to post coital contraception than have an unwanted pregnancy, but I suppose your OK with that.

Who said I wanted to prevent a child access to anything? I said as a parent I have a responsibility to care for my child and that includes medical care. I never once said children shouldn't have access to it. I said they shouldn't have access with out parents consent. Big difference.

The fact that a 13 yo could purchase the product without questions being asked is the fault of your system,

How's it work in your system. If your daughter wants this medication can she just walk up to a vending machine and buy it or walk into the local drug store and buy it?

not the fault of the product. And, you can buy cold meds without ID. There are dozens of products available for self selection. The fact that most of them are totally ineffectual is again the fault of the system. The ones that require ID are the ones that can be turned into amphetamine, nothing to do with drug research, and it is ironic that they are the effective products.

And the fact still remains of I want to buy cold medicine I must show ID. Yet a 13 yr old doesn't for this.

As I said previously, this medication has been available for over 40 years and has been shown to be safe and relatively free of adverse effects. It is the same drug that has been available in implant form and used in institutions for decades.

Thats great but it still has risks. As a parent its my responsibility to decide if the risk is worth it to my child.

I can't believe how you guys blame your government for everything. They make a product available to help prevent unwanted pregnancy and you blame the government. If the government restricted the availability and the rate of unwanted pregnancies increased other people would be blaming the government for not making available a safe and reliable medication. Educate children by all means but you will still have young people having sex without contraception, even in the strictest families. If the kids discussed with their parents that they were having sex I am sure the parents would give permission for them to use a contraceptive. The fact is, most children don't discuss their sex lives with their parents and would not be asking their parents for permission to buy the morning after pill. In that case they would probably wait for their missed period then maybe seek an abortion. Do you think that is a better option? :asian:

I think regardless of what option is better its my kid and as a parent its my choice.

 

[Makalakumu]

And, not as a medical professional, but as the father of a daughter whom I love very much, I'm glad that this pill will be readily available for girls who-for a variety of reasons-might need it but not feel comfortable asking their parents to get it. As a parent, I raised my kids to make their own informed decisions, and didn't put my head in the sand about what they might or might not be doing, or getting away with-nor did I watch them 24/7 and curtail their normal social development-I didn't have the luxury of that sort of time-I had to trust them. That trust paid off, I think-but I don't know if my daughter ever had an abortion, or if she's ever even had sex with a member of the opposite sex, for that matter.

I want to echo this point, because I as a father of a daughter who could be faced with such decisions, I'd like her to have the tools to shape the life that she wants. Sex is going to be a part of that life and the idea that I can control that or her is an illusion. I can take her to the store and teach her about condoms. We can go to the doctor and discuss birth control pills. We can talk about healthy sexual relationships and try and understand what those look like. This is just another thing that will become part of the conversation.

Regarding the religious mores surrounding birth control, this is something that really puts me in a twist. The Catholic Church opposes birth control because they want people to make more Catholics. The logic of the Church's position is laughable, especially since they teach Natural Family Planning. This method allows for a woman to recognize the signs that indicate when she is fertile and when she shouldn't have vaginal sex. It's important to note here that even the Priests understand that every time the penis and vagina touch, a baby isn't possible.

 

[Makalakumu]

If an 18 year old says that fine but a 13 year old isn't smart enough to make the choice.

13 year olds are smart enough to make the choice if you give them the information to make the choice. People always treat the 18th birthday like it's some magical line and rational thought begins there. This simply is not the case.

 

[ballen0351]

13 year olds are smart enough to make the choice if you give them the information to make the choice. People always treat the 18th birthday like it's some magical line and rational thought begins there. This simply is not the case.

They are not old enough to make decisions on heathcare. Kids are kids. These medications have side effects. A 13 year old isn't able to decide risk vs reward of these side effects. I've never once said the medication shouldn't be available. I said a child shouldn't have access with out parents permission. If a 13 year old capable of caring for herself then why can't she do other things for herself like get a tattoo or even ears pierced with out permission?

 

[Makalakumu]

If a 13 year old capable of caring for herself then why can't she do other things for herself like get a tattoo or even ears pierced with out permission?

Who says they aren't capable of making those decisions? Just because the government draws a magic line in the developmental sand, doesn't mean that this line actually describes something in reality. Perhaps it's never occurred to you, but 13 is considered the beginning of adulthood in many cultures. Also, according to Piagetian Developmental Stages, it's the age that most children develop a truly adult mind.

Perhaps our culture retards this process with it's arbitrary rules and ridiculous expectations? Perhaps childhood is artificially extended and the angst of adolescence is simply a reaction to this?

 

[ballen0351]

Who says they aren't capable of making those decisions? Just because the government draws a magic line in the developmental sand, doesn't mean that this line actually describes something in reality. Perhaps it's never occurred to you, but 13 is considered the beginning of adulthood in many cultures. Also, according to Piagetian Developmental Stages, it's the age that most children develop a truly adult mind.

Perhaps our culture retards this process with it's arbitrary rules and ridiculous expectations? Perhaps childhood is artificially extended and the angst of adolescence is simply a reaction to this?

Thats all fine and good maybe some are smart enough to make that choice but the law, which is all we can go by, says Im responsible for my kids. My 13 year old goes out and vandalizes someones property Im responsible for paying to fix it. My 13 year old cant get a cell phone contract because they are not legally mature enough to enter into a contract, but shes smart enough to make serious medical choices without a parents consent?

 

[Steve]

Hey, I was going to respond earlier today and I see that the conversation has progressed somewhat. I just want to throw out there that I see this as being a larger social issue than contraception. I see the reality that kids are stupid and should be given as many "outs" as possible so that the mistakes they make (and they all make them) are not going to do lasting damage to their lives.

Contraception is, in my opinion, a MUCH better alternative to unwanted pregnancy than abortion. And this pill is contraception. It prevents unwanted pregnancy.

As for the larger issue, which I think is much, much more important, is the oversexualization of kids, particularly girls, and the pervasive and unrestricted access to porn which gives kids a skewed impression of sex and sexual roles.

 

[Makalakumu]

Thats all fine and good maybe some are smart enough to make that choice but the law, which is all we can go by, says Im responsible for my kids. My 13 year old goes out and vandalizes someones property Im responsible for paying to fix it. My 13 year old cant get a cell phone contract because they are not legally mature enough to enter into a contract, but shes smart enough to make serious medical choices without a parents consent?

The idea that society would "allow" an individual to do anything is a fundamental pillar of socialism. Both Republicans and Democrats accept this premise and I think this brings forth a fundamental irony in our politics. Arguing about the particulars of what should be allowed when is the kind of collectivist rhetorical trap partisans have fallen into.

I think we should let the information flow freely and let responsible people make decisions for themselves.

 

[ballen0351]

The idea that society would "allow" an individual to do anything is a fundamental pillar of socialism. Both Republicans and Democrats accept this premise and I think this brings forth a fundamental irony in our politics. Arguing about the particulars of what should be allowed when is the kind of collectivist rhetorical trap partisans have fallen into.

I think we should let the information flow freely and let responsible people make decisions for themselves.

So then why put age limits on anything?

 

[Makalakumu]

As for the larger issue, which I think is much, much more important, is the oversexualization of kids, particularly girls, and the pervasive and unrestricted access to porn which gives kids a skewed impression of sex and sexual roles.

This is another place where this issue intersects with the science of human development. Sexual maturity intersected with adulthood in the past and culture had a much different view of sex, but when society makes rules that push adulthood away from sexual maturity, sexuality in young individuals becomes inappropriate because of the artificial extension of childhood. This has had all sorts of unintended consequences,IMO. Basically, our society is at war with our biology when we restrict youth from sexual behavior. It would be far more harmonious to accept that sexuality grows from puberty and prepare children accordingly.

 

[Makalakumu]

So then why put age limits on anything?

Why indeed? Arbitrary age limits discount responsibility and growth.

 

[Steve]

This is another place where this issue intersects with the science of human development. Sexual maturity intersected with adulthood in the past and culture had a much different view of sex, but when society makes rules that push adulthood away from sexual maturity, sexuality in young individuals becomes inappropriate because of the artificial extension of childhood. This has had all sorts of unintended consequences,IMO. Basically, our society is at war with our biology when we restrict youth from sexual behavior. It would be far more harmonious to accept that sexuality grows from puberty and prepare children accordingly.

I'm talking about sexualization well before sexual maturity. As in, young girls wearing makeup and hot pants, thongs, and marketing sexuality to them as young as toddlers.

 

[Steve]

Why indeed? Arbitrary age limits discount responsibility and growth.

There have always been rites of passage and arbitrary demarcations between youth and adulthood as long as people have been banding together.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm talking about sexualization well before sexual maturity. As in, young girls wearing makeup and hot pants, thongs, and marketing sexuality to them as young as toddlers.

I figured you were and I think more discretion there is appropriate, but many seem to want to apply these same standards to teenagers and that doesn't jive with human biology.

 

[Makalakumu]

There have always been rites of passage and arbitrary demarcations between youth and adulthood as long as people have been banding together.

In the past, these demarcations were far from arbitrary. They followed biologic markers surrounding puberty. It is only recently that childhood has been artificially extended.

 

[ballen0351]

In the past, these demarcations were far from arbitrary. They followed biologic markers surrounding puberty. It is only recently that childhood has been artificially extended.

Its extend because we don't need 12 year olds being married off and pregnant. We live longer and are healthier then ever before. We dont need 10 year olds in the army times are different.

 

[Makalakumu]

Its extend because we don't need 12 year olds being married off and pregnant. We live longer and are healthier then ever before. We dont need 10 year olds in the army times are different.

True, but the way our bodies work is still shaped by the past. That's not going to change anytime soon either. Some kind of compromise between our biology and the demands of modern society is needed. I don't think arbitrary rules and decrees will ever find this compromise though. It has to come from voluntary and informed consent...aka freedom.

 

[K-man]

Because a box of condoms isn't a medication that has side effects. If an adult takes them that's fine you understand the risk.

What about side-effects?
Levonelle doesn't often have troublesome side-effects. According to the 2011 British National Formulary, the commonest unwanted effects are:
nausea
mild menstrual irregularity – so your next period may be slightly early or late
low abdominal pain
headache
vomiting.
If you throw up within TWO hours of taking a Levonelle tablet, you've probably lost it. So you need to take another one.
Severe lower tummy pain could just possibly indicate an ectopic pregnancy, because Levonelle isn't so good at preventing those. Contact a doctor immediately.


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/morningafterpill.htm#ixzz2W975iutW

Of course an ectopic pregnancy is not something she would experience immediately anyway. There is a warning in the packet to see a doctor in the case of pain or missed period.


I'm responsible for my child and her health. She shouldn't be allowed to buy medications with out a parents consent. Kids are kids they do stupid things and are not responsible enough to take medications without adult supervision. I can easily see a girl saying well of one pill will work then I get 5 to make 100% sure I don't have a baby. If an 18 year old says that fine but a 13 year old isn't smart enough to make the choice.

And you are responsible if you daughter is pregnant at 13 because you told her she shouldn't have sex but she did anyhow? If your 13 year old is smart enough to have sex I hope she is smart enough to know how not to become pregnant.

I don't care if they hand the crap out at every bar in the US here's your beer and your oops I made a bad choice pill as long as your an adult. I disagree with kids being able to buy it without permission.

I might be wrong but I would have thought if they were handing them out in the bars, then your 13 year old daughter would not have access anyway. But you made a good point. The effects of too much time spent at the bar is a huge factor in the incidence of unprotected sex.

A 13 year old takes it and has a reaction to it. If I didn't even know she took a medication it could delay the proper treatment causing permenant health effects or worse.

Perhaps you would care to list one side effect of the pill that is ...
1. going to delay anything (except birth)
2. cause permanent health effects
3. worse than the above

Im not sure how you dont see a difference between a condom and a medication.

Simple. One is for before and during sex and the second is for when you forgot the first.

So when you said the point being missed is the pill is not just for kids what did you mean?

What I said was;"The point that some people seem to be missing is that this pill is not just for kids." This thread has been insinuating that the product is just for young kids and shouldn't be available for them. All I was pointing out that a large range of age groups avail themselves of this product.

Who said I wanted to prevent a child access to anything? I said as a parent I have a responsibility to care for my child and that includes medical care. I never once said children shouldn't have access to it. I said they shouldn't have access with out parents consent. Big difference.

OK, so your 13 year old daughter tells you in advance that she is going to have sex ... and you say ... ???

I would argue that in most families if a 13 year old was going to have sex the parents would be last to know. If your family is different then hats off to you. So she comes home and says that the condom you gave her came off inside and she's worried she might be pregnant. What are you going to do? I'll bet you're first in line when the store opens to get that medication.

How's it work in your system. If your daughter wants this medication can she just walk up to a vending machine and buy it or walk into the local drug store and buy it?

No. In Australia she has to have a brief consultation with a pharmacist to ensure that there are no other issues such as prior unprotected intercourse, the time since unprotected sex, other medications, warning of ectopic pregnancy etc. As I explained earlier, the US and Australia have different drug scheduling. We don't have your 'drug stores'.

And the fact still remains of I want to buy cold medicine I must show ID. Yet a 13 yr old doesn't for this.

You're totally missing the point. Both medications are safe to take without a great deal of oversight but one is the subject of criminal activity. Most cold remedies you can buy anywhere.

Thats great but it still has risks. As a parent its my responsibility to decide if the risk is worth it to my child

Let's look at the risks.
1. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and gets pregnant and you decide to go through with the pregnancy. Pretty traumatic I would have thought. Complications of pregnancy, possible loss of mother or child.

2. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and gets pregnant and you decide not to proceed with the pregnancy. You decide on termination (abortion). Even more traumatic and possibility of infection or worse. Then a lifetime of guilt.

3. Your 13 year old daughter has unprotected sex and takes a pill the next day and has her normal period shortly after.

You're really trying to say you would pick one or two over three?

I think regardless of what option is better its my kid and as a parent its my choice.

If it is your choice and with your blessing that your daughter is having sex then it may be your choice. If it is your daughter's decision to have sex then you sure as hell better hope that she also has enough maturity to take the morning after pill if it is required.

I accept that most of us don't want our 13 year old daughters having a sexual relationship but the reality is that some are, and some are becoming pregnant. Prevention of an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy is a great advance on the situation we have had in the past. :asian: