A Western Attitude?

[pgsmith]

Oh and I didnt learn Mugai Ryu in the states, and we have an international ranking system but I still had to have an okuiri and had to earn my menkyo to instruct.

OK, but that didn't answer the questions I asked. Myself, I practice under the auspices of Tony Alvarez in California. I am a member of Suimokai and Meishi Ha Mugai ryu Iaihyodo under Niina Gyokudo in Tokyo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I lay all of it out on my website and if they don't like it, then they know before coming in. For those walk ins that I have had, I have not run into the 'when do I get a belt?' issue. Given that I teach a sword art, they actually do get to do some sword work early on, but the etiquette is non negotiable.

I have a nice sized class (six regulars and four make-it-when-work/school-allows students. Of my regulars, two have been with me since 2009 and one is a first dan from another school and a fourth spent years in CMA, so etiquette has not been an issue thankfully.

I find that the sensei/sabeom sets the standard. My last school was run by a Korean born Korean and sadly, there are tons of belts and the whole attitude that the OP is encountering is one that is reinforced at that school. And in many others in my area with Asian born headmasters. And non Asian headmasters as well.

I'm not going to say that such schools are bad, but what they are is large commercial schools. Such schools usually cater to people who want a martial arts activity. They want a healthy environment to get a work out, some affirmation, and to socialize with like minded people. The manifold belt system is designed to both keep the affirmation going and to help pay the rent, as large commercial schools generally have a high overhead.

Needless to say, large commercial schools and smaller commercial schools that seek to duplicate the success of their larger counterparts are far more numerous than the traditional schools like the one described by the OP.

To the OP: You know what kind of student you are looking for. The students who want rapid advancement and constant belts with 'attaboy' cheers along the way have a myriad of options to meed their needs and wants. They are not your students. Keep doing what you're doing and the students you want will come. There are people in the US who want to practice an authentic art and who don't care about belts. Keep doing what you are doing and they will seek you out.

I wish you the best with your school!

 

[Zealot]

Never once have I said that what I believe is right is right for all. I never once judged anyone for not being taught in a classical way. I was not talking about the bleedin "good old days". My question was if this was a common mind set about wanting deadlines and picking an art apart to learn only what you want. I am not smug and my ego entered not once into the equation. I am sorry if that is how everyone is taking this, but I am the furthest thing from being smug.

Thank you Jenna for the suggestion, it went over swimmingly at tonight's lesson.

 

[Steve]

Never once have I said that what I believe is right is right for all. I never once judged anyone for not being taught in a classical way. I was not talking about the bleedin "good old days". My question was if this was a common mind set about wanting deadlines and picking an art apart to learn only what you want. I am not smug and my ego entered not once into the equation. I am sorry if that is how everyone is taking this, but I am the furthest thing from being smug. Thank you Jenna for the suggestion, it went over swimmingly at tonight's lesson.

Ok. No problem. I'm sure I misunderstood and apologize.To answer your question, no. I think you'll find many people who have distorted understandings of traditional martial arts training, but there are plenty of people who are interested in working very hard for long periods of time to learn things about which they are passionate. Their passion may not be sword fighting or martial arts, though. I also believe that these people, while not uncommon, are now and have always been in the minority,both here and in Asia.

If you don't believe me look at any of the select clubs for youth sports, any high school chess club, any math counts team or anything really. There are ALWAYS people who crave excellence and are willing to work for it. Bjj schools, wrestling team, shoot just look around. It may look a little different than at your school, but it's exactly the same and it's not rare.

 

[Steve]

Never once have I said that what I believe is right is right for all. I never once judged anyone for not being taught in a classical way. I was not talking about the bleedin "good old days". My question was if this was a common mind set about wanting deadlines and picking an art apart to learn only what you want. I am not smug and my ego entered not once into the equation. I am sorry if that is how everyone is taking this, but I am the furthest thing from being smug. Thank you Jenna for the suggestion, it went over swimmingly at tonight's lesson.

Ok. No problem. I'm sure I misunderstood and apologize.To answer your question, no. I think you'll find many people who have distorted understandings of traditional martial arts training, but there are plenty of people who are interested in working very hard for long periods of time to learn things about which they are passionate. Their passion may not be sword fighting or martial arts, though. I also believe that these people, while not uncommon, are now and have always been in the minority,both here and in Asia.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm still gaijin. Lumpen and proud, baby.

 

[Steve]

I'm still gaijin. Lumpen and proud, baby.

But, Bill. No one doubts that you're a gaijin. That bit of shame aside, you have never struck me as someone who is afraid to work for something that is important to you. You don't come across to me as someone who feels entitled, who has no sense of personal honor, or who presumes to order your Isshin Ryu training like a value meal from McDonald's.

After sleeping on this one, I think I may have an idea of where the confusion is coming from. There are traits, such as honor, integrity, work ethic and humility, that the OP references. These same traits manifest in very different ways depending upon the conventions of whatever culture you're in. In the first post, it appears these traits are demonstrated by not asking questions, folding the hakama correctly and I guess never mentioning McD's or Steven Seagal.

I said before that these traits are not rare. While there are plenty of malingerers around, there are plenty more who work their tails off. Young and old. I see plenty of them at the BJJ school where I train. They don't worry about how to fold their clothes because it's not something that is valued in BJJ. They don't tend to use honorifics and there's no expectation that they will be serious and stoic throughout the class. We laugh and tell jokes. We listen to music. But many of these kids are VERY serious about learning the art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. They study on their own. They work out and drill throughout the day. They attend every class they can, and apply themselves diligently to the craft. They exhibit all the traits referenced in the first post: honor, integrity, work ethic and humility. It just manifests differently.

Some might really enjoy a traditional atmosphere as well, and it's terrific that you're perpetuating this style of school.

I would just say to be careful presuming to know why someone quits, or presuming to judge their character.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But, Bill. No one doubts that you're a gaijin. That bit of shame aside, you have never struck me as someone who is afraid to work for something that is important to you. You don't come across to me as someone who feels entitled, who has no sense of personal honor, or who presumes to order your Isshin Ryu training like a value meal from McDonald's.

I am glad you feel that about me. I hope it is true, I think it is.

However, I do not hold myself to a 'code' (for lack of a better word) for others, nor do I think less of them for not having adopted mine. My code is my code. I have trouble with that Klingon "He is without honor" thing.

After sleeping on this one, I think I may have an idea of where the confusion is coming from. There are traits, such as honor, integrity, work ethic and humility, that the OP references. These same traits manifest in very different ways depending upon the conventions of whatever culture you're in. In the first post, it appears these traits are demonstrated by not asking questions, folding the hakama correctly and I guess never mentioning McD's or Steven Seagal.

I don't wear hakama, nor know how to fold one, but if it were part of my art, I would find it important to fold it properly.

However, I am also aware that my efforts would no doubt be lacking in some way. For example, I know the Japanese words for the exercises we do; but when I hear an Okinawan pronouncing them, I barely understand what they're saying. I must sound the absolute heathen to them. But, I am not overly fashed by this. I am doing my best to honor my training; we say the exercises in Japanese and I do my best to pronounce the words correctly. I am in no position to either correct others, nor to suggest that I speak the words correctly.

As a side-note, I find myself irritated (you may have noted) by both xenophobes and xenophiles. There is nothing inherently superior in Japanese culture, nor inferior in Western culture. They're different. There is much to admire and dislike in both.

I said before that these traits are not rare. While there are plenty of malingerers around, there are plenty more who work their tails off. Young and old. I see plenty of them at the BJJ school where I train. They don't worry about how to fold their clothes because it's not something that is valued in BJJ. They don't tend to use honorifics and there's no expectation that they will be serious and stoic throughout the class. We laugh and tell jokes. We listen to music. But many of these kids are VERY serious about learning the art of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. They study on their own. They work out and drill throughout the day. They attend every class they can, and apply themselves diligently to the craft. They exhibit all the traits referenced in the first post: honor, integrity, work ethic and humility. It just manifests differently.

Some might really enjoy a traditional atmosphere as well, and it's terrific that you're perpetuating this style of school.

I would just say to be careful presuming to know why someone quits, or presuming to judge their character.

Agreed.

 

[Carol]

As for smug, I worked a long time to divorce myself of ego. I would like to thank Jenna for the advice, I believe your concessions are a brilliant way of giving. As for me assuming that all westerners have a bad attitude, I meant no offense to anyone. Your path is your path, whether you walk crawl, or cartwheel along it is your business. I was told by a friend of mine here, that "kids" are different than they were when I was young. I was merely saying respect is not a sometimes thing, its an all time thing. When I made reference to McDonalds, I was trying to say that in a highly traditional school, training is done in steps. Each step takes you further down the path. The system is set up to teach discipline and the core values associated with dedication to the art. I apologize if I come across as smug, or ego serving, but truly personally I mean anything I post in no way.

P.S. When I served as a deshi I didnt have to chop wood and haul water. I raked and swept, but I received training everyday. Oh and I didnt learn Mugai Ryu in the states, and we have an international ranking system but I still had to have an okuiri and had to earn my menkyo to instruct.

Zealot, something in your original post reminded me of something. You state that students have been there for 2 or 3 months, and expecting X, then they leave when they are disappointed that they aren't getting X.

Perhaps a bit more time needs to be spent on managing the student's expectations, and the way YOU do things...which may be different from how other people do things. As an example, from the Filipino/Indonesian side, my training there has been without any belt ranks. I understand why my instructors have done that, I have my own reasons for appreciating it, and others may have their reasons for disliking it.

I don't know if student handouts would help (I understand you don't teach for money therefore resources may be limited), but perhaps spending a little bit more time enforcing your way of doing things may be of value? It may even be worth pulling aside the younger students in class on a semi-regular basis, congratulate them on whatever milestones they achieved (small or large) and then describing what will come next, and describe the reasons for these steps. At work, I have a young fellow working with me right now at my engineering job that has a very limited technical background, but wants to grow more on the technical side. He has been given tasks to do, and a procedure to follow, which he does quite well.

I have noticed something interesting. When he learns something new, he is more apt to retain it if I tell him some of the "whys"...this is probably no surprise. However, when he is on his own with a procedure, he is more apt to ask a constructive question or notice when something is amiss when I tell him the "whys".

Perhaps you are already doing this, I don't know. But if not, it may open some new understanding for your newer students. It won't solve every problem, nor will it keep everyone from quitting but it could be a start of some improved retention. :asian:

 

[pgsmith]

Never once have I said that what I believe is right is right for all. I never once judged anyone for not being taught in a classical way. I was not talking about the bleedin "good old days". My question was if this was a common mind set about wanting deadlines and picking an art apart to learn only what you want. I am not smug and my ego entered not once into the equation. I am sorry if that is how everyone is taking this, but I am the furthest thing from being smug.

Not smug, but you did (and still do) sound a bit more than slightly "holier than thou" about the whole thing. You are also extremely defensive for someone without an ego.
And you still never answered my question about your training.

As a side-note, I find myself irritated (you may have noted) by both xenophobes and xenophiles. There is nothing inherently superior in Japanese culture, nor inferior in Western culture. They're different. There is much to admire and dislike in both.

Just thought that was good enough to bear repeating.

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess I was just lucky when I was training. I was hungry to learn and devoured everything that was given to me.

You were not lucky, sir. Rather, you were a motivated and enthusiastic student with no delusions of what it would take to learn your art.

 

[Langenschwert]

I don't know if student handouts would help (I understand you don't teach for money therefore resources may be limited),

I have used handouts in my own school to good effect. It helps to reinforce using the German terminology in beginners (though English is fine to start with) since subsequent gradings require knowing the technical terms of swordsmanship in German.

It also helps remind the student of the art in general throughout the week, even if they just have it collecting dust in plain view on their desk or whatever. The same thing applies in music: even if you can't practice on a given day, at least pick up your instrument to keep your brain thinking about the art in the background... that's way better than doing nothing. My handout consists of a cutting diagram and pictures of the basic guards taken from historical sources, and a little glossary of terms so when the student wonders what the heck zornhau means, there it is. He might even pick up his waster and do five or six zornhauen (kesa for you JSA guys) before going off to work or to walk the dogs or whatever.

It might also be good to include a bit of a autobiography of your training... what it was like, what you did, how you felt... it will give the students an idea of where you're coming from and perhaps a bit of perspective on why you do things the way you do.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[pgsmith]

I have used handouts in my own school to good effect. It helps to reinforce using the German terminology in beginners (though English is fine to start with) since subsequent gradings require knowing the technical terms of swordsmanship in German.

I totally agree. I shamelessly stole a very nice study-guide put together by an affiliated dojo in Chicago (Shinjinkai). It has lists of the names of many of the kata, quite a few of the Japanese phrases that will be commonly heard in the dojo, parts of the sword, basics of etiquette, and a list of places to go hunting for additional information on both our school and the sword arts in general. I also give students a brief history of the school, and the organization's testing requirements.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My question was if this was a common mind set about wanting deadlines and picking an art apart to learn only what you want.

Yes and yes, but I see them as two separate issues.

Deadlines mean that the student wants an advancement track. This could be an issue of ignorance; they don't know so they ask, or it could be impatience; they want to make sure that they don't have to wait. Or maybe they were stuck in one level for an exceptional amount of time elsewhere and felt that it was just so that the school owner could get more money from them and so they don't want to repeat the experience. I think that the primary reason is that most of your commercial schools do have an advancement track. To the untrained, the idea of a school owner having every detail and step along the way plotted out and scheduled looks like preparedness and like being organized. To the trained, it simply looks like a commercial school catering to the average suburban student's expectations.

Picking the art apart and learning what you want may be indicative of a student who already knows a martial art and wants to learn certain aspects of another, or of a student who wants to learn an art, such as swordsmanship of some kind, but cannot find a stand alone school, and so goes to schools who's art contains the element that they are interested in.

Daniel

 

[Zealot]

Ok Dear Lord. Here is an update. I love the idea of handouts, it would work better towards understanding. As for holier than thou attitude....Really? im sorry you took it that way but I am farthest from that. I just say in a traditional system there is a traditional way of learning. And yes folding your hakama is one thing that you learn. Respect for a uniform shows you can respect the art. Im sur a bunch will disagree with that considering Im on my high horse. As for picking the art apart, its not that they dont want to learn, I meant that if they want to learn the sword the safety protocols are there for a bloody reason. I dont need students so badly that I will cut corners.
I had an appointment for new students, so I did as Jenna suggested, I let them sit in on the senior students practicing Tameshigiri. It went over well. The senior students then took some of the younger students and potential students and showed them equipment and training techniques. I explained why it was done this way and how we train for discipline. They watched an informal class we had, practicing throws and breakfalls. Yes there was much laughing and yes there was music. Just because we are traditional, the bokken isnt up the ****. Anyway thank you Jenna for the constructive criticism and thanks to all of you for the ideas.

If my training will lend any credence to my words cause I see I keep getting asked about it. Ask me privately.

 

[Steve]

Personally, I'm glad you're unwilling to cut corners. It just sounds like a good idea where swords are concerned.

I think we're in danger of making more of this than exists. The tone of the original post struck me as a little pompous, but you've clarified your positions. I apologized (genuinely, for what it's worth) for jumping to conclusions. So, welcome to the site. I hope you stick around. Sounds like you are running a cool school for people who want to learn to swing a sword in a classical Japanese style school. Good on ya, and I wish you nothing but success.

 

[Langenschwert]

Ok Dear Lord. Here is an update.

That sounds like undiluted awesomeness. It seems like you hit all the right buttons to really show what your dojo is about. It sounded like it was fun. And really that's why we do this stuff... if we didn't have any fun doing these disciplines, we wouldn't do it unless we were actual duellists or something. I do koryu as well, not only because of the physical and spiritual benefits, but because I find it fun. I certainly wouldn't do it if it made me miserable. That's what music is for.

Having the students see what seniors are capable of is a great idea. Sometimes in my class when the seniors do steel freeplay, sparks fly and the newbies are usually suitably impressed. Not surprisingly, they're more impressed by the sparks than the swordsmanship that happened to generate them. And that's OK... whatever gives them the excitement that keeps them interested through all the countless repetitions of basic techniques, the conditioning and all that.

I don't think you have a bokuto in your posterior. You're a serious practicioner, and that's a good thing. And you're reaching out to your students showing them why this stuff is so cool.

Pretty good deal IMO.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And yes folding your hakama is one thing that you learn. Respect for a uniform shows you can respect the art. Im sur a bunch will disagree with that considering Im on my high horse.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you feel about hanging the hakama on a hangar that is designed to hold long, flowing garments?

No right or wrong answer; just curious.